10 Design Points for a Sailfar boat - for long term cruising (1 or 2 onboard)

[CharlieJ]

Good mattress? absolutely.

Reasonable galley? Certainly, although Laura cooked a thanksgiving dinner, with baked sweet potatoes, hot rolls, and all else, on a one burner, with a pressure cooker for an oven. So reasonable is a hard definition. We lived quite well for 2 1/2 years. Seldom if ever wanted more.

Enclosed head with SHOWER?? Why not just get a spray bottle of mold and mildew and shoot it all around inside the boat? On a 50 + footer, maybe. On a sailfar size boat it's absurd- it would be a mold and mildew factory, and you'll already be fighting those. . You simply do not need that enclosed shower, OR head. In 2 1/2 years I think there may have been once or twice where having the head under the bed was awkward. Otherwise, it's used once a day. Why give that space to it? Modesty on a small boat is mostly in your head anyway- go outside while your partner is using the facilities. Just not that big a deal.

As for bathing- we used a pressure sprayer (from Duckworks) which lived in the cockpit. MOST baths were done in the cockpit, with wind cloths  or towels hung from the bimini to block others views. But most cruisers will simply ignore you, because they will be doing the same later. And for other times, we kept a container of baby wipes inside and used those- clean your personal areas, and you are good to go. Bathes aren't taken every day anyway- not enough water to do that. Nor enough fresh clean clothes. You think a pair of shorts is gonna get worn ONE day and put in the dirty clothes? Think again.


Living full time on a small boat is a very different life style. DON"T try to bring your shore side methods and habits aboard. You won't be happy.

We asked for four things when we were looking-

Tiller steering

Full head room in main cabin

Outboard power

and a head in a separate compartment

We got three out of the four, and the one we didn't get- the separate head, turned out to be a non issue. It simply isn't that important.

More later but it's late CaptK kept me on the phone for a few hours tonight ;D ;D

[matt195583]

I have found this thread really interesting I have had my boat for 18 months now and am pretty well happy with it ... I was reading this post measuring "Blue Print" up against the "the boat" list. I think she come out looking alright.

"1.   27 to 30 foot (I like smaller, but bigger is (usually) more comfortable at sea and more spacious in port....maybe not so important now, but in 10 or 20 years?)"

Well I bought 34 ft @ 10250lb


2.   Full Standing Headroom at least near the hatch (and over the galley if not there) - ideally throughout the saloon, but if not then full sitting headroom, including in the principal bunks.

Got that, in the galley, nav table and the saloon



3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!)

Opposite the settee I have a bunk with lee cloth fitted. and have been toying with the idea of setting something up for a lee cloth with the settee table folded down. But so far the only times a sea berth has been needed is sailing 2up so one is sufficient.


4.   A separate heads compartment (and not under a bunk)

Got that too  :)



5.   At least capacity to create a double berth - for in port sleeping or "entertainment"

The V-berth is my primary bed and the settee makes for a second.


6.   A separate (in port) sleeping area (from the Saloon).

As above.

7.   Two (under deck) people areas (i.e. separate forecabin and saloon)

As above also.

8.   A decent sized galley area (space for a full sized cooker (even if not fitted), a Fridge / Freezer, a plumbed in sink and food preparation space - even if including saloon table and / or the Nav Area (if any) - plus storage space.........even at the price of a dedicated chart / nav area)

I have a fair sized galley plumbed sink ( foot pump ) extra fold out bench space with plenty of storage built in eutectic fridge about 60lt and a 40l engel all having retained the nav table.

9 and 10 easy


11.   A seakindly hull (for me that is a boat that does not require constant attention to keep heading in the same direction - including when the wind / sea pipes up, a decent bit of keel and some weight is useful for that - even if not always essential)

Given the UFO 34 is essentially identical to the S&S 34 I think i have that one covered.


13.   Capacity to add an o/b on the stern (at least for port entry and exit) if main engine goes pop and funds not immediately available to sort. In an ideal world I would say o/b all the time, but 27 to 30 getting outside o/b power.

Not really an option, the aries is going to fill up my transom. Just got to get the mounting brackets I have been waiting for.

14.   A bow roller and Windlass (appreciate that can be added later - but a PITA and costly to retrofit)

Got it , duel (oversized) rollers and a manual windlass.


15.   Decent Anchor Chain stowage

I have 70 meters of 8mm chain in there now and im sure i could get twice that in if i wanted although the weight would be getting a bit excessive.


and my water tank is 300 liters or around 75 gallons in one tank on the starboard side ...... not so good for boat trim, I would like to split it. and put around 100 liters on the port side with the batteries.

The other thing that I will be doing as soon as i get back to the boat is ripping out the terrible wheel steering setup and refitting the tiller.

I think that other than the extra 4 feet she is pretty "sailfar" . all systems where possible are super simple and manual.

[Sunset]

About the shower. First let me say Charlie, I have the highest respect for your experience and skills as a builder. Also you have been out there and around more boats than I by a hundred fold.
I am not saying that you are absolutely not right on the mold thing.
But I had planned to have an overhead hatch in the shower and an opening port also. Help me understand the difference in a well ventilated shower and a wet bilge that most boats have. It seems that most bilge pumps get the water out only to a point then the rest lays there to be slowly evaporated throughout the whole hull.
As for the roof hatches we are planning on one over the galley, the V berth, the head and maybe the table also. All ports will be NFM's opening with screens also.
I totally agree with the cockpit shower, if fact I always looked forward to the solar showers. When the sun would start to get low I had a insulated bag made of half inch felt I would slide it in to keep it hot till after dark. But my wife doesn't share the love for cockpit showers.

The tiller is also a must for me on a small boat. We would tie it off tilted up to the Bimini and have plenty of room in the cockpit of our Belhaven for grilling and laying around in the evening. I had an unnatural love affair with my Magma grill every evening.
I had Graham design the cockpit short for a 28, no longer than the one on my Belhaven and a longer cabin for as much other luxury's that can be reasonably put in a 10 foot beamed 28.

As for a dry bilge that is the goal, maybe unachievable but the goal. The rudder shaft will be in a tube from the bottom of the hull to the cockpit sole. The stuffing box will have a small boxed in area with a pump to keep it reasonable dry. The anchor well or chain locker will drain through the side of the hull well above the water line and completely sealed off from the cabin, except an inspection plate 6 or 8 inch round.
So other than a leak from a tank or condensation we should be dry, in theory.

#1 I'll be at 28'4"
#2 We will have 6' 1" through the whole cabin all the way into the V berth.
#3 The settee could be used.
#4 Have that, Shower???
#5 Have that
#6 Vberth
#7 Have that planned
#8 Have that planned, but don't know about the nav table yet.
#9 Have that and #10 also
#11 Yet to be known, but the designer is very good.
#12 Foam cored
#13 probably not easily
#14 Will have bow roller, with the hull windlass ready if needed latter.
#15 Should have plenty.
My #16 tiller steering with tiller pilot.
My #17 a well insulated ice hold with 110 and 12v cool plate also.

Scott

[Captain Smollett]

Living full time on a small boat is a very different life style. DON"T try to bring your shore side methods and habits aboard. You won't be happy.

Charlie, I wish I could give you about 20 Grogs for that.  

Been saying it for years and it always seems to fall on deaf ears.

A boat is not a house.  Living on a boat is DIFFERENT than shore-side living.  Trying to make it the same is the, to my observation, the quickest path to disappointment, frustration and giving up.

As a simple philosophical question, I often wonder why people are so inflexible.

Well, here's the one grog I can give at this point...

Help me understand the difference in a well ventilated shower and a wet bilge that most boats have. It seems that most bilge pumps get the water out only to a point then the rest lays there to be slowly evaporated throughout the whole hull.

Personally, I think you are overthinking the problem of the little bit of water in the bilge.  Rain, condensation, etc are all factors.

If I may, what Charlie is saying is that the shower is going to ADD to all the other "natural" sources of dampness/mildew you are already going to be fighting.

I like to think of this kind of thing on a cost-benefit analysis, and to each his own.  The cost of a onboard shower is too great for most small boats.  The mildew, the tankage, the space, etc.  Cruising, you'll shower a couple of times per week with sponge bathing, swimming, getting rained on, etc, filling in the rest of the hygiene requirements.

Adding a shower adds tremendous complexity to every other system on the boat.  It's not just "add a shower."  It's change the plumbing, change the layout (costing big in the crucial area of STOWAGE), change the maintenance requirements (chasing mildew among other things), etc.  The boat is an integrated whole and the shower darn well better bring something KNOWN to the table that offsets ALL the costs.

It cannot be said enough.  A boat is not a house.  Living on a boat is not living in a house.

Sorry if I sound preachy....don't mean to.  I just think this is a "dangerous" path.  I'd guess on boats under about 32 feet or so, maybe 1 in 20 successfully add a shower (and still hardly ever use it).

YMMV...no absolutes. 

[CharlieJ]

Scott- the big difference is the shower will usually have hot water, and WILL then have steam. The entire interior of the shower will get moisture- everything.

I've seen lots of enclosed showers on boats. I've seen many whose owners have stopped using them, because of the constant moisture in the compartment.

Of course there IS that "But my wife doesn't share the love for cockpit showers." which makes a huge difference. But on long term, warm weather cruises, she's apt to change ;)

And just to show you a difference -I've never OWNED a grill mounted on the boat ;D ;D

Not on my trimaran, nor on either of the recent boats. Tehani nor Necessity have stern rails, so I would have no place to mount on anyway.

[Captain Smollett]

Scott- the big difference is the shower will usually have hot water, and WILL then have steam. The entire interior of the shower will get moisture- everything.

Another point is that the pump-up sprayer can be used below if need be.  We have done this.

Being "mostly off" it does not contribute to the steam/mildew issue AS MUCH as a regular "always on" shower would.

As an interesting data point, I have a (shore based) friend who a couple of years ago started simplifying his lifestyle with his wife and four children.  He went to a 2 gallon pump-up sprayer to shower himself and any of his children that would play along.

Two of his teen-aged daughters took the bait.

The three of them shower with the sprayer (not together, of course).  His teen daughters report "no loss of comfort" showering this way vs conventional, and the water savings turns out to be tremendous.

They do this as a matter of course now.

Another thing that can work is that a lot of marinas will let anchored crews use their showers (sometimes for a fee which I have found to be reasonable).  Even if anchored out, if you want to do laundry, shower, use the wifi to contact friends and family, the marinas provide this service - not all, but they are there.  I doubt few would turn down the opportunity to make $10 or whatever.

So, if the "civilized" shower is a requirement for crew happiness, this is one way to achieve it in a behavioral compromise:  One marina shower every week (or every other week, whatever).  Such behavioral compromises save having to compromise on fundamental design of the boat which can have far reaching consequences perhaps not seen now.

[Sunset]

Captain preach away, I love to here what people out there doing it have to say. It always gives food for thought. I agree its not a house but it is similar to a nice camper. I just want to stay as far away from what I call the pop-up camper syndrome as possible.

I edited my above post to include the rest of the 15 plus a couple of more.

Charlie there's no way I would spend over a day on a boat without a magma grill ;D. Its as important to me as a place to sleep.
On by Belhaven I added a 90 degree ss 1" base mount to the side deck with a 12" piece of ss tube. I could swing her in while sailing and swing her out over the water to grill. We grilled new-york strips, lobsters, shrimp, red snapper and all sorts of other goody's including biscuits.

I wasn't planning to have an hot water heater, we where going to use the solar showers with a quick disconnect above the shower on the roof.
Captain I did promise my wife two nights a week at a marina or mooring ball for hot showers, laundry, fuel, water, pump-outs and all the other provisioning things.

Right now I cant wait for a month on a mooring ball at Boot Key harbor and dinging over to that water side pub for a few cold ones and conch fritters. ;)

[matt195583]

On the subject of showers inside boats I am not really a  fan.
One thing i have seen in a local sailing magazine is a bloke using a camping style shower tent trimmed down to sit in the cockpit seats when in more populated areas most likely a pita but better than water in the boat and with any luck could could satisfy the crew requirements

[David_Old_Jersey]

This thread has developed nicely  8) and IMO although we can all disagree on specifics / whether applicable for usage I think the general thrust tells it's own story.....and from multiple sources is all the better for not being identical.

On the shower thing, I am not a fan of having onboard - but would certainly consider installing if a female required one. Depends really on how much I liked her  :P Some things are an each to their own thing.

Having said that, whilst I agree with the concept of not trying to turn a boat into a country cottage by trying to cram in all sorts of shorebased mod cons - nonetheless if I had the room (and power!) onboard I would not say no to a 12 person (woman?  ;D) Jacuzzi and a walk in fridge out of some sort of principle  ???......but if I bought something with that onboard it would be only after having a very nicely sorted Sailfar sized boat (possibly a couple - scattered around the world  :)).

That reminds me, must check me lottery numbers  ;D

[Seafarer]

My Cal Cruising 35 has *ALL* of that (except sea berths on either side without dropping the dinette table), and I can't see fitting all of that in much less room.

Some of my favorite small boats:

Aquarius Pilot Cutter

Bristols in that size range

Cape Dorys in that size range

Cals in that size range, especially flush-deck versions for roomy interiors.

Freedoms in that size range, specifically the 28

Island Packets

Now- unsure with regards to seaworthiness because I've always believed a narrow beam was better at sea... but a wide beam really opens up the possibility for useful interiors when the designers start putting things sideways....

By that, I mean: My custom IP26MKI has a V-berth you could sleep thee in (haven't tested that yet), or two in sideways (which I have tested and works wonderfully). The head is large for a 26' hull. The galley is huge. The cockpit is big (retarded design but big), the dinette is really small but works. No seaberths at all. Not sure about off-shore worthiness, but I'd take it around the Caribbean with a reliable outboard.

[Mario G]

It cannot be said enough.  A boat is not a house.  Living on a boat is not living in a house.


But it can be a home.

We do have a  built in shower on board, it might be one of the main reasons the 1st mate agreed to liveaboard full time. we tend to use a solar shower hanging on hooks in the head do to the fact we are not often hooked to shore power to utilize the onboard hot water heater. It must be do to good ventilation that we don't have a mold or mildew problem.

Its been over a year and a half since moving aboard with little changes made to the boat to make her our home on the water.