Anchors, anchors again, & more anchors....

[s/v Faith]

Just got back from Wilmington where I sailed the boat down and took my Captains liscence tests.

I normally anchor a couple times a week, but mostly just use my lunch hook on afternoon sails. I took my shiney new Manson with me for the trip, I anchored for the night half way there, half way back, and used it again for the afternoon stop half way up the river.

I normally try to set pretty close to a 7:1 scope, but tried the Manson at about 5:1 the first night, and just over 4:1 the second. Normally I would not think too much of the results of using the anchor so few times but I am impressed so far.

THe first night, there was about 15k of wind, but there was 2.5k of current, that turned during the night. From the GPS, there appeared to be no change in position outside of the swing circle (no drag). THe bottom was sand with some weed cover. The anchor set quickly, and apparently reset quickly when the current switched.

THe return trip I anchored in the same place, it is on the ICW, with very little protection (behind the 'BC' mark, just south of Surf City). THe wind was blowing pretty good, forecast for 25k, probably gusting slightly higher.

I let out enough rode for about a 4:1 scope (for testing).
The anchor alarm never went off, but the bread crumbs look like someone colored over the swing circle. THe wind and current (again, 2.5, and switching during the night) swung the boat through the entire circle, but there appeared to be no drag. I would not have trusted a Danforth in these conditions unless I had two set in a V with the roades linked.

I stopped on the river for a quick swim, and the clean the boat up before I got back to the marina. I gave it enough rode to set, and then choked it up short. It held with the 10-15k wind.
I used the rode for my stern anchor, which is stinkpot rigged (6' of chain)  ;D
The anchor was no harder to retrieve then my CQR had been, but did not pinch my fingers like the CQR did. The flukes came up pretty clean, but the roll bar drained sand and mud in the cockpit. Won't be an issue once the roller is set up on the bow for it.
Really early, probably too early to tell but so far I am pleased with my Manson supreme.

_{Borrowed the picture from Ebb}

  I got mine from Azure Marine,

Toll-Free Number 1-888-586-4732
Southeast Florida
954-962-4515

.)

OBTW;

Manson 25 pound Supreme anchor (galvanized)
$173.001$173.00Sub Total:$173.00 Handling:$5.00 UPS Ground:$21.42 Grand Total:$199.42

This is less then half what the Rocna was going to cost.


http://www.azuremarine.com/store/det...ct_id=MAN:S25G
__________________

[oded kishony]

How does this anchor attach to the rode? I notice a long slot on the top of the shaft, is this part of the attachment system?

Oded Kishony

[Fortis]

The anchor is very similar to my SARCA. The long slot is rather nifty. A D-shackle's bar runs along the slot. When it is at that far end of the slot the anchor digs in and the boat is anchored, when you motor forwards, the D-shackle with your rode slides along the slot towards the anchor and the anchor is easily extracted fomr the bottom.

I always thought it was a gimmick and that the first thing that would happen would be the slot gets full of crud and the shackle would not slide...but I have been pleasently surprised by how well the system works on the Sarca, and assume it is the same deal here.

It MUST be a stainless D-shackle, even if the anchor is galv. Galv on galv can bind up and not slide cleanly in the slot.


Alex.

[Pixie Dust]

Faith- Congrats on the Capts License Test!!!!!!!!!!!  GROG GROG GROG for you Matey.  :D

Very interesting anchor.   Results are looking good so far.  You are so right about the galvanized shackle.  I spent a good part of 2 days trying to get mine off to switch out anchors.  I ended up using a blow torch (my first experience with that gadget) in conjunction with lots of Blaster, hammers, pry tools and sailor girl language.   :D  I did drag anchor and chain off the boat to the dock prior to adding fire.   :o   My plan is to go buy a stainless shackle and replaced the galvanized asap.
I have been trying out my Fast Set Delta 22#, recommended for 30-40' boats.  I have 30' 5/16" Hi tensile chain.  I have had several times that the boat direction has turned 180 degrees and the anchor did not drag at all.  So far I am pleased.  It also breaks loose easily.  I have not had a strong blow yet, so I still have some testing to do.    Good price on the one you got too!  Keep us posted on the tests.

[AdriftAtSea]

The one thing I'd say about using a SS shackle, in place of a galvanized shackle, is if you're anchored out for longer periods of time, the SS shackle may fail due to corrosion.  They can get buried in the bottom and the lack of oxygen can cause them to corrode rather more quickly than you'd expect.  Same problem with stainless steel chain in an anchor rode.  Just something to think about, as stainless steel corrodes very quickly without constant oxygen exposure.

svFaith-  Congrats on the captain's license. :D

[Fortis]

The term Stainless steel covers a very broad range of alloys. What you say is very true of 304, less true of 316 and not at all true of the 4 series and other more exotic marine mixes that they have come up with.

The stainless that is actually designed to be galvanised (I used to work in building electro-winning plants for mines) or live in the bottom of slurry tanks is certainly not stuff that objects to being deprived of oxygen.

Not all stainless is created equal.


Also, with the Sarca, I have noticed that the slot is designed for a very oversized D shackle...So even with 316, I would feel confident leaving it on the hook for 6 months at a time. (all other factors not being an issue)


My biggest issue with stainless chain in the rode is that the constant wave action of holding a boat will work harden and overstress the links on either side of the individual welds.
And that is why I decided against SS chain.


cheers

Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

Of course, getting shackles made of the 4xx series stainless is pretty much a custom thing, at least around here.  Of course, using an oversized shackle means that you have to have an oversized link in the chain to connect to the oversized shackle.

[s/v Faith]

I like to give Craig Smith a hard time on various forums, mainly because he does such a great job of defending his Rocna anchor (I am sure it is a fine anchor).  I personally might have bought one had it not been for the savings I had with my Manson Supreme (good anchor).

  Anyways, Rocna has some pretty good info on their web site.  Here is a table they posted;



  What I noticed was the big difference required to hold a smaller boat.

  Yet another metric by which the small boat wins.  ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

And the ground tackle is lighter, smaller, and considerably less expensive... :D Steve Dashew has an 110 KG Rocna anchor on his new boat IIRC... That's 242 lbs. of anchor...not to mention how much the chain must weigh and cost...

[Auspicious]

Reporting back on my initial experience with a Rocna anchor. I put a 55# Rocna on my 22,000# HR. All chain rode (5/16" HT) to a vertical windlass late last summer. I live aboard and sail as long as the wind is blowing and it isn't TOO cold.

My anchoring has been in Chesapeake mud with the odd sandy spot.

The anchor sets quickly and hard. There isn't any doubt at all when it sets. Every single time, even the lunch stops when I don't reverse on it and the wind is light, I have had to motor over it to break it free. That is my kind of anchor.

Based on anecdotal information from friends, I would expect similar performance from a Spade. Definitely easier to set and stronger holding than a Delta, and much much improved over a CQR.

[AdriftAtSea]

I've had much the same results with my 15kg Rocna.  No complaints for the most part.  Do wish it wouldn't bring up quite so much of the bottom every time I bring it back aboard though.. makes an awful mess of the foredeck.

[s/v Faith]

.. makes an awful mess of the foredeck.

  Same with my Manson... one draw back.  :P

Ok, I have not made any progress on my anchor roller in the last two weeks (I made the roller base, and faired it into the deck, re-non-skidded and painted the foredeck and then the wx got cold).

  So, I decided to look for a replacement for the R.O.D. B. F.(Rusty old Danforth, Bent Fluke) that rides on the bow.  I plan to keep it up there hanging off of the clips as a secondary anchor... so.

  I like the Fortress anchors.  I have used them on OPB's, and really like pulling them in.   ;D  Oh yea, and the way they set and hold too...  ;)

  So, I look at their chart... fx-7 lists 16-27' boats... (too small for me) so I go to the fx-11.  That is better at 28-33'  but then I look at the FX-16.  The size is not much bigger then the R.O.D. and you could anchor a fleet of our boats on the thing..  ;D ;D ;D

  So then I look at the second R.O.D. I have on board.  It is a smallish one that sits in the lazy-rat hatch on top of 75' of rode that I can literally toss overboard with one hand as a 'parking brake' _{(the anchor, not the rode.)}

  So I go ahead and bite the bullet and buy an FX-7 to replace the R.O.D......

  SO, they arrive.

First, I am really impressed with the quality.  I have looked and used others, but I am feeling pretty good about these.

  So, I put the FX-7 together.....  :-\  it 'seems' as big as the R.O.D.B.F.  I have not yet tried but am thinking this think will not fit in my lazy-rat hatch without some twisting and turning... not too cool for the 'parking brake'.  >:(

  Then I put the FX-16 together...  again great quality.  I will say 'great' anchor... even though I have not yet used it.

  It is 'great' in that it looks like it belongs on the bow of the queen marry... _{(ok, maybe not quite that big)} 

  Thankfully it can be taken apart, and stowed below as a storm anchor. 

  On re-checking the measurements the FX-7 will fit on the bow as the replacement for the  R.O.D. B. F.  8)

  So...

Fortress makes a less fancy version of their anchors called the 'guardian' series.  They are not anodized, and they do not offer the adjustable fluke feature (for really soft mud).  I looked at them, but decided against them as I noticed they seem to test lower too... can't really esplain that.  ???

  Buuuutttt...... there is a smaller guardian.. a 2.5# model that should fit in the lazy rat nicely....   ;D :D ;) :D ;D


  .......please help me friends.  ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I'm a bit wary of the Fortress anchors, as I understand that once they've dragged, they can start to plane and will not reset at all.  A fluke-type anchor is not really ideal for areas that have reversing currents or winds, as well as areas that have weedy or grassy bottoms as most fluke-type anchors don't really reset as well as the plow or next-generation* type anchors do.

Another strike against the Fortress, for me at least, is that aluminum is not all that durable a material, especially when underwater for extended periods of time. It is also far more subject to fatiguing than is steel.  I think I'll stick with my Danforth, and yes, it is an actual Danforth brand anchor, and my Rocna.  :D

*   Next generation anchors include the Rocna, Buegel, Spade, Manson Supreme, XYZ, and Bulwagga designs.  Of these, I think that the Rocna, Beugel, Spade, Manson-type make far more sense than the XYZ and Bulwagga, both of which have some issues IMHO with their design and usability.  While they may work quite well, the fact that the XYZ and Bulwagga present great problems in storing and stowing makes them less desireable as useful ground tackle.

[s/v Faith]

I'm a bit wary of the Fortress anchors, as I understand that once they've dragged, they can start to plane and will not reset at all.  A fluke-type anchor is not really ideal for areas that have reversing currents or winds, as well as areas that have weedy or grassy bottoms as most fluke-type anchors don't really reset as well as the plow or next-generation* type anchors do.

Another strike against the Fortress, for me at least, is that aluminum is not all that durable a material, especially when underwater for extended periods of time. It is also far more subject to fatiguing than is steel.  I think I'll stick with my Danforth, and yes, it is an actual Danforth brand anchor, and my Rocna.  :D

*   Next generation anchors include the Rocna, Buegel, Spade, Manson Supreme, XYZ, and Bulwagga designs.  Of these, I think that the Rocna, Beugel, Spade, Manson-type make far more sense than the XYZ and Bulwagga, both of which have some issues IMHO with their design and usability.  While they may work quite well, the fact that the XYZ and Bulwagga present great problems in storing and stowing makes them less desireable as useful ground tackle.

Someone has been reading his magazines a bit too much....  ::)

[AdriftAtSea]

s/v Faith-

It isn't a matter of reading... it's a matter of experience.  I've had a Danforth-type anchor plane on me after it came unset during a tide shift.  I can't imagine a lighter, less dense version, which is what a Fortress really is, doing any better.  That's one reason I decided to not go with the stock Danforth as my primary anchor.  I would rather have a more versatile anchor as my primary. 

I've also used Bruces, CQRs and Fisherman-type anchors.  Fisherman don't seem to grab well in much of anything.  CQRs seem to be pretty good, but I've heard lots of horror stories about them.  I've also not had enough experience with them to say definitively whether I like them or not, but the hinge bothers me... it seems to be a flaw in the design.  I'd probably go Delta before I went with a CQR.  Also, the blade design seems to be counter-intuitive to the idea of holding fast to the ground.  Bruces don't seem to really grab all that well, all the times I've used them.  It never seems to take all that much effort to break out a Bruce anchor, especially compared to a Danforth or Rocna—and yes, I've tried with similar weight anchors in the case of the Rocna and Bruce, the Danforth was lighter.

I've also used a Buegel and my own Rocna.   From what I can see of the geometry and actually comparing the anchors, I don't see a huge difference in the functionality of the Rocna, Spade, Buegel and Manson Supreme.  While I think the designers would probably disagree, functionally, they're all modified plough designs for the most part.  However, unlike a more traditional plough, the blades are designed to resist movement through the ground far more on the newer designs.

Concerning the Bulwagga and XYZ, I don't have any first-hand experience with...but from the photos I've seen of them... I can't see how they could be stored easily... especially the Bulwagga.  They both seem to take up huge amounts of space, which I don't see as feasible on a smaller boat.

Personally, I'd love to use a lighter anchor.  My boat, being a trimaran, is far more weight sensitive than I'd like it to be.  I can't afford to have an all-chain rode.  The 30' of chain I've got now, along with the 150' of rope and the anchor are pushing it pretty hard as it is. 

Aluminum and stainless steel I don't see as viable materials for cruising anchors, especially if you're going to be anchoring out more often than not.  Aluminum tends to fatigue under far lower loads than does steel and has corrosion issues as well.  Stainless steel has corrosion issues and is really expensive. 

[s/v Faith]

s/v Faith-

It isn't a matter of reading... it's a matter of experience.  I've had a Danforth-type anchor plane on me after it came unset during a tide shift.  I can't imagine a lighter, less dense version, which is what a Fortress really is, doing any better.  That's one reason I decided to not go with the stock Danforth as my primary anchor.  I would rather have a more versatile anchor as my primary. 

  I agree.  I have the Manson Supreme as my primary.  I like the Fortress for a secondary.  I also have read about the planing issue, but never anywhere other then marketing for another new generation anchor.

  There are quite a few folks who swear by the danforth, and quite a few who carry a fortress as a primary anchor.  Frankly, I would not do that either, but not for any reason other then the bent shanks and flukes I have seen and experienced with danforths... under a changing wind / current condition so I ASSume that the fortress might do that also.  My "R.O.D.B.F." mentioned in my original post has served me long and well.  The Fortress was a viable replacement... and a whole bunch lighter to boot.

[Frank]

I've had my $45 dollar 'danforth look alike' hold in weeds and hard sand where neither my bruce nor delta would set. Yet...make it a bit softer bottom and the same anchor drags while the other 2 'bite hard'. Anchors are like car brands....go from your own lessons and experiences.....and they change with bottoms.   On jubilee I carry a 14lb danfoth knock off and a 22lb delta fastset

[AdriftAtSea]

s/v faith-

My boat tends to accelerate under the force of current a bit faster than yours would...since it is much lighter.... so the Danforth wouldn't reset...it kited instead... I think adding a bit more chain to it would have helped a bit...but I'd rather just use the Danforth as a kedge anchor.

I've never managed to bend a shank, but have bent a fluke...

I've liked how well my Rocna sets in most conditions I saw last summer... over varied bottom types.

[Frank]

Been thinking about this anchor topic. The best anchor is the one you have experimented with and have faith in. Don't take others words for it,don't read about it...TRY IT. Have 2 different types and know from your own experience where they work best and where they fail......cause some night, some where ,it IS going to blow real hard out there and you will be below trying to sleep with one eye open.....but ya can close both IF you know from your own experiences with your own anchors on your own boat !! That really IS the bottom line. 'pun intended'

[Captain Smollett]

Well put, Frank.  And once again we see the role of confidence - confidence born of experience - in good seamanship.

Thanks.  Grog to ya.