Our "planned" voyage, AKA 2+2 on a 22.

[Travelnik]

2 people, 2 dogs, on a 22' Westerly Nomad.  ;D

We are loosely making plans right now, but we don't have a set date for our little adventure yet. That will depend on getting the boat ready, and getting enough money together to pull it off.  :D

I'm estimating that this little trip will take around 18 months, because I want to travel according to the seasons (follow the colors). We will be leaving in the late part of the summer season/early fall (year not determined yet).

The route we are planning on taking is to trailer the boat to Shereveport, LA, and put the boat in the Red River there.

Take the Red River to New Orleans, and mess around there a little. Then work our way across the Gulf ICW, and over to Florida to spend some time with my wife's family there over the holidays.

Next, we plan to mess around the Keys, and possibly the Bahamas until the weather starts to get warm, and then work our way up the Atlantic ICW, eventually reaching Maine for the summer, and exploring that area.

When the weather starts to get cooler, and the leaves begin to change colors, we want to go back down the East Coast and follow the changing colors on the way down, mess around in Florida/Bahamas again, then back up the Gulf ICW to Shreveport, and East Texas before the summer heat.

I think 18 months should be enough time to cover that. Then we should be able to determine whether we want to do the full-time liveaboard lifestyle or not.

Our house is paid for, as well as all of our cars, trucks and motorcycles, so I'll need to store the vehicles while we're gone. Our son can check on them for us.

We're planning on renting the house out for some cruising income on the trip, but I really would like something extra that I can do from the boat to make an income onboard. I'm still trying to figure that one out!

Anyway, that's the plan right now, and as usual, it's all subject to change. My wife likes the idea of not sailing far offshore, and being able to go places on land. The deep ocean terrifies her just because she doesn't know how far the bottom is. I keep telling her that we are going to be on top, so the depth doesn't matter, but it does to her. Maybe, by the time the trip is over, she will have more confidence for taking extended trips.

Suggestions?
Comments?

[Frank]

Sounds like a fine cruise with enough time to enjoy things along the way. As to your wifes fear of offshore...crawl, crawl faster, walk slow, walk, walk faster, walk fast, jog, slow run, run  ;D ;)  Build her confidance in both the boat and crews ability slowly. Too fast and the 1st big wave to slap ya will scare her off.  HAVE FUN!!!!!

[Captain Smollett]

Anyway, that's the plan right now, and as usual, it's all subject to change. My wife likes the idea of not sailing far offshore, and being able to go places on land.

Being able to go places on land seems to be what cruising is all about.  Sailing offshore is only a necessity to get to some of those places.  Or, to get to some quicker (you can do in a few days what takes quite a few weeks to cover via the ICW, for example).

The deep ocean terrifies her just because she doesn't know how far the bottom is. I keep telling her that we are going to be on top, so the depth doesn't matter, but it does to her. Maybe, by the time the trip is over, she will have more confidence for taking extended trips.

If she's truly terrified, I'm not sure I'd even try to push it.  At all.  What Frank said about baby steps is right on the money and at her pace....totally.  Not trying assume you have not thought about it this way.  It's just that when I hear the word "terrified," it strikes me as more than just a little scared.

All that said, if she is being honest about it being because she does not know how far the bottom is, well, use makes master can play a role.  It may simply be a matter of getting out there and doing it a little.

Does she swim?  Is she afraid of the water in general, or is it specifically the ocean?  Where HAS she sailed with you?

The trip sounds like a blast.  18 months is probably the MINIMUM you'd want to do it.   ;)  Have fun...the planning is almost as fun as the doing...almost.

[Travelnik]

Anyway, that's the plan right now, and as usual, it's all subject to change. My wife likes the idea of not sailing far offshore, and being able to go places on land.

Being able to go places on land seems to be what cruising is all about.  Sailing offshore is only a necessity to get to some of those places.  Or, to get to some quicker (you can do in a few days what takes quite a few weeks to cover via the ICW, for example).

The deep ocean terrifies her just because she doesn't know how far the bottom is. I keep telling her that we are going to be on top, so the depth doesn't matter, but it does to her. Maybe, by the time the trip is over, she will have more confidence for taking extended trips.

If she's truly terrified, I'm not sure I'd even try to push it.  At all.  What Frank said about baby steps is right on the money and at her pace....totally.  Not trying assume you have not thought about it this way.  It's just that when I hear the word "terrified," it strikes me as more than just a little scared.

All that said, if she is being honest about it being because she does not know how far the bottom is, well, use makes master can play a role.  It may simply be a matter of getting out there and doing it a little.

Does she swim?  Is she afraid of the water in general, or is it specifically the ocean?  Where HAS she sailed with you?

The trip sounds like a blast.  18 months is probably the MINIMUM you'd want to do it.   ;)  Have fun...the planning is almost as fun as the doing...almost.

My wife swims like a dolphin. She was born in Jacksonville, FL, and was swimming before she could talk!
She told me that everyone in her family were natural-born "water dogs" so I don't get where the fear comes from.
On the other hand, I'm not all that great of a swimmer, but I'd rather be sailing than swimming anyway! I learned when I was 10, but I was raised in Arizona for 25 years, and didn't have much chance to practice my swimming.

I was thinking that the clear waters around the Keys and Bahamas would help to ease her out of her worries. That way she can see the bottom, and know what's down there.
She likes that idea, and also knowing that land is near comforts her.

We also need to stay fairly close to shore for the dogs. There won't be too much room on a 22' boat for them to play, or take care of business. Daily shore leave and dog walking will help everyone.

I assured my wife that we could spend some occasional time in motels while visiting some nice towns, plus we will be able to spend some time at her sister's place in Ocala.

She has agreed to a few day sails offshore along the trip, but she isn't ready to cross the Atlantic! ( Neither am I! LOL )
Even the idea of the Bahamas doesn't really scare her because she knows that there is land somewhere not too far away.

We've only been on the local lake where the bottom was 16-20 feet, depending on the rainfall that year, and she liked the boat. It wasn't "tippy" like she expected. There was always land in sight too. Before this boat, she had only been on small row boats as a kid, and I think she had some bad experiences with people rocking the boat to scare her.

I think that the idea of having a land-based home to come back too gives her some comfort too. She knows that the boat isn't a permanent home, just a "watery RV" that she won't be stuck in forever.

Part of the problem is that she doesn't like feeling out-of-control. Since most of the ICW part of the trip will be motoring, she will get plenty of chances to "drive" the boat, and get used to being in control.
She also doesn't like going fast, so the max. hull-speed of the boat will comfort her too.

I'm sure that everything will work out. The trip may last longer than 18 months. It all depends on how everything goes.

[CharlieJ]

Definitely would agree on the "Minimum", and I'd figure 2 years if it were me.

Hey took me Sept- Dec to single hand the boat Chesapeake to Port Lavaca, and I was pretty much just making miles.

LOTS and lots to see and do on our coasts- DO NOT rush it. That's the whole point- seeing the places, meeting the people ( including some rather unsavory characters from this forum-boat bums all :D). Some days you might only make 3- 4 miles. So what? Don't get in a rush and short change yourselves. You'll regret it in later years


And should I remind you doing to the Bahamas requires some DEEP water sailing?

Gulf Stream?

Crossing from the Berry's to Nassau goes across Tongue of the Ocean. I told Laura not to drop anything overboard cause I couldn't snorkel 22,000 feet down to get it back ;D

Once you get over 6 feet, what difference? ;) Teasing of course. Others have explained breaking her in gently. No need for me to add to that.

Most important- don't rush, be safe and enjoy. You won't pass this way again.

Oh- and just read the last post. My son lives in Jacksonville, and I lived there for 20 years- worked for Prudential. Built my Cross 35 there under the Atlantic Blvd bridge. Used to be Pelican Creek boatyard, on Johnson's Island. Now all fenced off.

[Captain Smollett]

I assured my wife that we could spend some occasional time in motels while visiting some nice towns,

I personally think this is a VERY good idea.

I think it was Lin and Larry that I read suggested that...treat yourself to a motel stay once in a while.
There are plenty of ways to save money to make this fit the budget. (**)

While we were living aboard, we actually budgeted nights in motel every so often.  We did not always use it "on a schedule," but we DID use it.  It was like a mini getaway when we did it.

Cruising/living simply and on a low budget is cool, but this is the sort of thing that comes under the "Reduction of Misery Principle."  

(**) We used the money we came in under budget on food to do stuff like this...or eating out, etc.  Two months of being a bit frugal but never uncomfortable with our food shopping bought us a lot of 'extra' $$ for "reduction of misery."

[northoceanbeach]

I agree with setting some aside to do something but I've always found a day in a motel to be more troue than its worth. Once you unload and get settled and take a shower, it's time to go to bed then get up and unpack an leave.

I couldn't scrimp too hard on food though.

[Travelnik]

Definitely would agree on the "Minimum", and I'd figure 2 years if it were me.

Hey took me Sept- Dec to single hand the boat Chesapeake to Port Lavaca, and I was pretty much just making miles.

LOTS and lots to see and do on our coasts- DO NOT rush it. That's the whole point- seeing the places, meeting the people ( including some rather unsavory characters from this forum-boat bums all :D). Some days you might only make 3- 4 miles. So what? Don't get in a rush and short change yourselves. You'll regret it in later years


And should I remind you doing to the Bahamas requires some DEEP water sailing?

Gulf Stream?

Crossing from the Berry's to Nassau goes across Tongue of the Ocean. I told Laura not to drop anything overboard cause I couldn't snorkel 22,000 feet down to get it back ;D

Once you get over 6 feet, what difference? ;) Teasing of course. Others have explained breaking her in gently. No need for me to add to that.

Most important- don't rush, be safe and enjoy. You won't pass this way again.

Oh- and just read the last post. My son lives in Jacksonville, and I lived there for 20 years- worked for Prudential. Built my Cross 35 there under the Atlantic Blvd bridge. Used to be Pelican Creek boatyard, on Johnson's Island. Now all fenced off.

The Bahamas is still a maybe. We'll decide on that when the time comes. I did show her Dave and Mindy Bolduc's site, and the pictures of their 14' "Little Cruiser" in the Bahamas. We'll be on a mega-yacht compared to that! LOL
I understand that thinking about the water being over 6' deep though. I feel the same way! She thinks that I'm a bit of a daredevil, and somewhat reckless. Yeah, I rode my motorcycle over 145 mph with no front brake, no helmet, and barely able to stand up. Yeah, I drove my cars over 150 mph. Yeah, I still need to go skydiving (soon), but she's done something that I'd never be crazy enough to do...She took a Greyhound Bus across the country!  :o That's some scary stuff there! (Not to mention the smell!) I'll fly a Cessna 150, or an ultralight, but you aren't getting me on one of those buses!  ;D

I want to have the Pardey's "As long as it's fun" attitude on the trip.

The kids are adults now, no stresses, no worries, just the honeymoon we never had.

[Travelnik]

I assured my wife that we could spend some occasional time in motels while visiting some nice towns,

I personally think this is a VERY good idea.

I think it was Lin and Larry that I read suggested that...treat yourself to a motel stay once in a while.
There are plenty of ways to save money to make this fit the budget. (**)

While we were living aboard, we actually budgeted nights in motel every so often.  We did not always use it "on a schedule," but we DID use it.  It was like a mini getaway when we did it.

Cruising/living simply and on a low budget is cool, but this is the sort of thing that comes under the "Reduction of Misery Principle."  

(**) We used the money we came in under budget on food to do stuff like this...or eating out, etc.  Two months of being a bit frugal but never uncomfortable with our food shopping bought us a lot of 'extra' $$ for "reduction of misery."

I think that the gas for motoring the ICW will probably be our biggest expense, so once that's covered, we should be able to "splurge" a little on luxuries!

We won't have to overload the boat with supplies since we will still be fairly close to everything. If we overpack, we can send stuff back home. If we need more, we can buy things along the way.
Keeping the boat lighter will probably help with fuel consumption too.

She's starting to get a bit excited about the adventure. There will still be a little time while we work on the boat. She likes the "cute little boat" and doesn't feel any pressures since I told her that I never planned for us to live on a boat that small.

I'll just have to keep her away from the bigger boats, or she may end up falling for one, and talking me into living on one full time! LOL

[Travelnik]

I agree with setting some aside to do something but I've always found a day in a motel to be more troue than its worth. Once you unload and get settled and take a shower, it's time to go to bed then get up and unpack an leave.

I couldn't scrimp too hard on food though.

We won't be in any hurry, so if we stay more than one night, it won't be a problem. If the weather gets bad, we will probably wait out any storms on shore too.

There won't be any schedules to keep, except whatever I need to do for work, and I'm trying to come up with something that I can handle online for that.

[Travelnik]

I forgot to mention that we will be using propane, so no fussy kerosene, diesel or alcohol cooking for my wife. I'm going to put in a 2 burner stove, and modify the sea-swing for propane too.

I will also be putting in more fresh water tanks, building a sit-down shower, and installing an on-demand propane water heater.

We will also have a 12v refrigerator, something like a Norcold portable. We like cooking our own food, but a nice dinner out is good too!

We won't be roughing it too bad!  ;D

[David_Old_Jersey]

I will add my +1 on using the shore to keep the wife happy! It will also work for you as well!

Nothing wrong with a small boat of course, but can't ignore the fact that they are small  ;D And the easy way to acquire more "Living" space is to go ashore, both together and individually. A bit of dog walking solo might well fit in well for each to acquire own space. Being stuck onboard or simply feeling like it! does get to everyone eventually.........

One thing I slowly learned in my past (shoreside!) travels around the world was that it was the people that made places good, bad or so so..........and you don't get to meet those when tucked away in own cocoon whether that be a hotel room, an apartment, a tent or a boat  - no matter how nice the view is. Having said that it is nice to be able to retreat to own cocoon!

Anyway, sounds like you have set the groundwork for having fun  8)

[Captain Smollett]

I think that the gas for motoring the ICW will probably be our biggest expense, so once that's covered, we should be able to "splurge" a little on luxuries!

Ahhh, fuel on the ICW.

IT'S SAILBOAT, MAN!   ;D ;D

In seriousness, though...some thoughts.  I'm not sure how much familiarity you have with the East Coast ICW, so here's assuming you have not been here:

** At least motorsail...it really does help with fuel "economy."

** If you've got the time, work WITH the tides - don't try to motor against them.  If you need to save money more than time, don't burn it needlessly bucking the current for 2 knots SOG but burning fuel as if you are doing 5 kts.  Better to wait, in my opinion, but few "sailors" seem to actually practice this age-old tactic.

** Sail when you can, which is more than most people do.  I understand Gulf Coast is different (I've sailed in Mississippi Sound, but not west of there), but here on the East Coast, there are a lot of places on the ICW one can sail.

For example (these are just some off-the-top thoughts where sailing would not generally even be a challenge):

From where the S ->N ICW meets Winyah Bay, you can sail up the bay and keep right on going up the Waccamaw River.  With the dominant winds, you may well be able to sail all the way to (or nearly so) to Bucksport ... over 30 miles.

Savannah to Beaufort, SC ... no need to motor.

Cape Fear River from Southport to Snow's Cut is about 15 miles and no reason to motor if the wind is there.

Once you get north of Adam's Creek Canal (Beaufort/Morehead City) in NC, there's no real NEED to motor at all til you get to Elizabeth City - 2-4 days at the very least (if you are bookin through the region) - provided you can wait for the right weather, etc, etc.

And lots and lots of other places where you MIGHT be able to sail ... Bogue Sound?  Maybe.

Some places you probably won't want to sail unless things are "just so."  The canals and cuts come to mind as examples.

So, even with 0 'outside' legs, there are many opportunities to sail, leave the engine off and save fuel.  It all hinges on that commodity we too-often lack...patience.

[Travelnik]

Thank you!

I was under the impression (from other 'sailors') that using sails on the ICW wasn't permitted because of the traffic. Maybe the problem is that they have a harder time with their big boats, and having to have a crane set up their masts on the Great Loop.
I would much rather sail when possible, or even yuloh at times.

This is the kind of advice I really need!  ;D

[Captain Smollett]

Thank you!

I was under the impression (from other 'sailors') that using sails on the ICW wasn't permitted because of the traffic. Maybe the problem is that they have a harder time with their big boats, and having to have a crane set up their masts on the Great Loop.
I would much rather sail when possible, or even yuloh at times.

This is the kind of advice I really need!  ;D

Hmmm, not aware of that in general on the AICW.  Dunno about the Gulf ICW.  The AICW is a very different animal than on the Gulf Coast, both in geography and in traffic.

The bridge tenders won't like you sailing through opening bridges.  You can always start the engine and tell them over the radio that you are motor sailing.  Some may not care anyway.  I don't think there is any regulation explicitly prohibiting it.

There are places where sailing is not permitted.  One that comes up a lot is the Cape Cod Canal, and I'm trying to remember if the canal connecting Chesapeake Bay with Delaware Bay is like that.

But, in general, from Florida to Virginia at least, you should have numerous opportunities to sail.

I like bearing good news!   :)

[CharlieJ]

Can be very difficult to sail in the GICW, once west of New Orleans. For one thing, between NOLA and Galveston Texas, the ICW is very narrow, runs very straight in many spots, like 30, 40 miles or more, and often is dead up wind, depending if you are heading east or west. Also, that section of the ICW is THE busiest of the entire ICW, Norfolk to Brownsville. You'll often have more tows in sight at one time than you'll see in a month on  the east coast (literally- we saw FIVE from Miami to Norfolk) Once past Galveston the tow traffic eases, and waters are more open for using sail and once past Port O'Conner, you can sail a good bit , particularly west bound. East bound, not so easy depending on winds.

And fuel is difficult to come by between Port Arthur and Intercoastal City- BETTER be able to motor at least 150 miles on what you have aboard.

As to sailing through draw bridges- many, if not most tenders will flatly refuse too open if you even have sail up. I've had them demand I drop all sail  and motor through. Maybe not be a law, but they can hold you up for hours if you don't comply- not worth  fighting it

I've now run the ditch, Norfolk to Brownsville some 6 times. LOTS to see, but between Port Arthur, Texas, and New Orleans, it can be VERY boring. AND if the boat draws any at all over 3 feet, anchorages are few and far between. But once through the Florida Avenue Bridge in New Orleans, it becomes a whole 'nother world. Mississippi Sound is great, with the barrier islands and inshore towns to visit.

Off shore between here and there? Forget it east bound- hard on the wind and a hundred million oilrigs out there. Well- seems like it ;) In three days offshore coming west out of Vermillion Bay to Freeport, we were out of sight of rigs for about an hour and a half. Plus the waters are VERY shallow- 75 miles offshore and in 72 feet of water. If you catch a squall, it can get ROUGH, and the rigs give you no room to run. West bound is different cause you'll be off the wind.

[Captain Smollett]

As to sailing through draw bridges- many, if not most tenders will flatly refuse too open if you even have sail up. I've had them demand I drop all sail  and motor through.

I have sailed through opening bridges and motorsailed through even more.  I've never been challenged on it, but I do think it is bridge tender dependent.

If they refuse to open for me in the absence of a specific law forbidding it, I might well be inclined, for a moment anyway, to challenge 'em to cite their basis for denying me passage...

After all, an engine is not REQUIRED to use the nation's waterways in general.

In other words, a bridge tender has no legal basis to demand that I lower sail...his job is to open the bridge - on demand or on a schedule.  Period.

The man might like to try playing hard ball, but then again, he might like to keep his job as well.

Maybe not be a law, but they can hold you up for hours if you don't comply- not worth  fighting it

All the above said in the hypothetical, though, I do agree with this 100%.  In that absence of a compelling reason to do otherwise (engine failure or the like), going with the flow is the path of least resistance.  Pick your battles, and all that.

[CharlieJ]

Absolutely- and some are not worth fighting ;)

Long ago, I had a dead diesel in my trimaran. Was sailing a beam wind down the ICW to Fort Pierce, where I had a friend, (AND someone who owed me money) when I got to the next bridge up from Ft Pierce The tender INSISTED I be towed through, and called the Fla Marine Patrol to come do so. The officer came, tied along side, the tender opened the bridge, I sheeted in and watched her(the officer) eyes open wide as we accelerated to about 8 knots :D This on a 35 foot tri

She said to me- " I never knew sails had THAT much power!!"

I grinned.

The NEXT bridge south just opened when I asked ;D

I suspect someone made a phone call ;D ;D

Then there was the tender at Thunderbolt Ga who flatly refused to open  because "my long wasn't long enough" This before most bridges had radios- she did have one.

Took me an hour and a half, AND having the Coast Guard call her and ORDER her to open the bridge!!!

I've seen it all.

A friend once blew for the bridge at Beach blvd, Jax Fla. No response. He blew, and blew, finally ran the boat ashore next to the bridge ( german dude- volatile)

climbed the bank to the tenders building

and found the tender sound asleep on the toilet!!!!

They are human, just like us   ;D ;D

[Captain Smollett]

So, even you plan to motor actually THROUGH the bridge to keep the tender happy, how much fuel per bridge we talking?  1/2 pint or so?

Also, as I think about it, the spots I was talking about sailing are not where opening bridges are anyway.  I was thinking "Yes, sail" in the open areas.

Where 'most' of the bridges are, one would likely be motorsailing if the sails are up at all anyway - the channels tend to be narrower and more flukey wind.  So, if while motorsailing and the tender requests, drop the sails at the bridge, raise 'em again once through.

A lot of folks, bloggers and the like, seem to like bashing waiting for bridges, but up here, it's not THAT bad.

There's not one single "must-pass" low clearance (less than 65 ft at high tide) bridge on the NC ICW between Onslow Beach and Alligator River - about 4 ordinary travel days apart.  Nothing like that 7 in one day Florida way of doing things.... ;D

In fact, now that Sunset Beach is a hi-rise, I can only think of 6 opening bridges in NC on the ICW, but Alligator River can be by-passed by sailing up Croatan Sound if you can clear the 45 foot fixed bridge on Hwy 264 (or go the longer way around Roanoke Sound...might not be able to sail that way due to being confined to the channel).  So, one could conceivably run Onslow Beach to Elizabeth City without having to deal with a bridge.

Though I must confess there is that stretch where one has 3 in one day...Wrightsville, Figure 8 Island and Surf City, but that's as bad as it gets.  Last time I went through Wrightsville, it was about 8 pm and I did not even have to slow down.  Yes, I was motoring.   :P

SC is not too bad, either.  None from Ben Sawyer (just N of Charleston) all the way to Socastee...at least 2 longish travel days, but there are 4 (if I'm remembering right...KR can correct if there are only 3) from Socastee to the State line.

None if you go outside.   ;D ;D

[CharlieJ]

There's not one single "must-pass" low clearance (less than 65 ft at high tide) bridge on the NC ICW between Onslow Beach and Alligator River - about 4 ordinary travel days apart.  Nothing like that 7 in one day Florida way of doing things.... ;D


Though I must confess there is that stretch where one has 3 in one day...Wrightsville, Figure 8 Island and Surf City, but that's as bad as it gets.  Last time I went through Wrightsville, it was about 8 pm and I did not even have to slow down.  Yes, I was motoring.   :P

Just looked at my old log book. Ft Worth Inlet ( Fla) to Miamarina -down town Miami just past Rickenbacher Causeway Bridge .

51 miles, 31 bridges

Most with restricted openings.

I refuse to do that again. What a ZOO. Last time, (and all future runs) I went offshore!!