Cyric30's Search for a Boat

[Cyric30]

Kinda going far off topic here, but......
I've been trying to work the Logistics of a getting a boat to and from water where I'm at, as i am very much land locked, LOL. and being as AR isn't exactly a sailing Mecca ya know. one thing you all have mentioning of the ICW, this got me to thinking, i am within 50 or so miles of a White river that is seasonal for barges and is maintained by the Corp, at a supposed 8 feet. goes through a very long stretch of national forest and shoots straight to the Mississippi no locks no dams eather, would that be something worth exploring as a possible motor cruise in a say 30' boat with the mast down for a possible route to the gulf? the national forest is so rugged not much tourism, so would make for a unique experience for sure, but also few fuel stops along the way....

[skylark]

http://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html

Is any part of the Loop near your location?

[Cyric30]

Hay Skylark
the White river runs into the Mississippi  right north of where the Arkansas river runs into the Mississippi, in fact theres a lock between the 2 a bit north.of the rivers mouths, and from looking at the map provided on the website provided I'm about in the middle of the  lower Mississippi's route, that appears to be ill favored for its lack of marinas, gas resupply, tugs and bugs , is also north of the Geenville marina so at least i would have that stop.

http://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html

Is any part of the Loop near your location?

[Adodero]

There is a Bodega 30 for sale in Titusville for $12k.

The Bodega 30 is the same design as our new boat, a Golden Gate 30. They aren't really common on the east coast, but folks from the west coast seem to be familiar with them. I know of at least 2 that have circumnavigated and the rest have undertaken pretty extensive voyages (Chuck Burns, the designer, sailed one to Hawaii).

The boat is a full keel, moderate displacement boat with a deck stepped rig. The interior is -AMAZING- for a 30ft boat, there are 5 berths, a nav table, and a full galley. The rig is a pretty simple sloop rig and balances very very well. I've yet to see a full keel boat with such a nice and functional interior layout and nice sailing characteristics, which is why we bought the Golden Gate 30 we did.

The Bodega in Titusville needs a bit of work, but if you can get it down in price a little, it could make a great boat. We looked at buying it and probably would have, but I don't have the time to invest in her. She is pretty well equipped, with a Norvane, autohelm, vhf, profurl, solent stay, and a number of other goodies. One of the prior owners sailed her from Alaska to NC, so that tells you how capable the boat is.

You can find the owner's details at http://goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/sailing_classifieds/boats_for_sale.php, just search the page for Bodega.

The only issue, with your list, is that this boat requires an inboard. I don't think you are going to find something in your size range that really works well with an outboard, without significant modification (e.g. a well). I would seriously consider this boat if you don't mind putting a little work into it and don't mind the inboard.

If you are seriously interested and it's OK with the owners, I will go take a bunch of pictures for you and do an ad hoc survey on the boat. I took a bunch for my own benefit, but, despite loving the boat, knew off the bat she wasn't going to work for us, so I wasn't super thorough. I'm not sure how happy they'd be about me doing that, since I already walked away, but the offer is on the table, none the less.

[Cyric30]

Adodero

Thank you for the heads-up on the Golden Gate 30 and its sister designs, it is one that i have not seen mentioned before on any lists Ive looked at., and its fits alot of my needs well. But at this point in things I'm just looking and studying on my wants and perceived needs in a boats, it will be a bit before i can actually get serious with this dream, unless its some sort of crazy deal, but i always enjoy looking at boats so if you have any pics already i would love to look, but don't make a special trip to get any,  i wish i could move my time table up, but Ive already got major projects underway, that will take a bit more time to complete then i can get more serious with things.

There is a Bodega 30 for sale in Titusville for $12k.

The Bodega 30 is the same design as our new boat, a Golden Gate 30. They aren't really common on the east coast, but folks from the west coast seem to be familiar with them. I know of at least 2 that have circumnavigated and the rest have undertaken pretty extensive voyages (Chuck Burns, the designer, sailed one to Hawaii).

The boat is a full keel, moderate displacement boat with a deck stepped rig. The interior is -AMAZING- for a 30ft boat, there are 5 berths, a nav table, and a full galley. The rig is a pretty simple sloop rig and balances very very well. I've yet to see a full keel boat with such a nice and functional interior layout and nice sailing characteristics, which is why we bought the Golden Gate 30 we did.

The Bodega in Titusville needs a bit of work, but if you can get it down in price a little, it could make a great boat. We looked at buying it and probably would have, but I don't have the time to invest in her. She is pretty well equipped, with a Norvane, autohelm, vhf, profurl, solent stay, and a number of other goodies. One of the prior owners sailed her from Alaska to NC, so that tells you how capable the boat is.

You can find the owner's details at http://goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/sailing_classifieds/boats_for_sale.php, just search the page for Bodega.

The only issue, with your list, is that this boat requires an inboard. I don't think you are going to find something in your size range that really works well with an outboard, without significant modification (e.g. a well). I would seriously consider this boat if you don't mind putting a little work into it and don't mind the inboard.

If you are seriously interested and it's OK with the owners, I will go take a bunch of pictures for you and do an ad hoc survey on the boat. I took a bunch for my own benefit, but, despite loving the boat, knew off the bat she wasn't going to work for us, so I wasn't super thorough. I'm not sure how happy they'd be about me doing that, since I already walked away, but the offer is on the table, none the less.

[s/v Faith]

Oh man!

  I was in Titusville 3 days ago, I easily could have looked at it for you.  >:(

Wish I had seen this sooner, but good luck in the search!

[Cyric30]

Greetings one and All,
Yes i am very much alive and well, with my hopes and dreams in tacked

As the title suggests, thoughts on the Tartan 30. from the information ive found seems a well built boat that might take you anywhere you wanted to go.(with appropriate upgrades and maintenance of course) feel free to ask questions leave comments...in other words lets talk :)

[Sweetwater Pirate]

Hi,

Do you have one, or are you looking for one?

Sorry, unable to give you specific information on the  30.

There are many good boat out there, some at fair prices.  It helps to have a few that you like.  They are attractive to your taste and suit your needs.  Then as you search look for those first in very good condition, then well equipped is a bonus.

It is really difficult to tell someone else what they may like.

Do not buy a project boat unless you want a project, and not to be out sailing or cruising.  Projects take large amounts of both time and money.  It is an expensive proposition to make major repairs or major equipment upgrades.

Just one mans opinion.

[Grime]

You might want to check out this link. Some pretty good info on the Tartan 30.
http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1316-tartan-30.html 

I don't have any experience on the 30 but have sailed a couple of time on a 41. I must say I like the 41 very much. I think the 30 is just as strongly built as the 41.

[Cyric30]

Hello Sweetwater
I am just researching things at this point, this particular boat has alot of things i like, from just my reading, but nothing beats first hand experience and many of the folks here are much more knowledgeable than me :)

The prices on the Tartan is not a bank breaker for sure, but as you say, get the best boat you can for the money you can....

Hi,

Do you have one, or are you looking for one?

Sorry, unable to give you specific information on the  30.

There are many good boat out there, some at fair prices.  It helps to have a few that you like.  They are attractive to your taste and suit your needs.  Then as you search look for those first in very good condition, then well equipped is a bonus.

It is really difficult to tell someone else what they may like.

Do not buy a project boat unless you want a project, and not to be out sailing or cruising.  Projects take large amounts of both time and money.  It is an expensive proposition to make major repairs or major equipment upgrades.

Just one mans opinion.

[Cyric30]

Hello Grime
Good to see you again :)

ive read the artificial an they seem to give it a pretty fair shake on things. ive even found second hand info on a couple circumnavigating in one, which is promising.

You might want to check out this link. Some pretty good info on the Tartan 30.
http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1316-tartan-30.html 

I don't have any experience on the 30 but have sailed a couple of time on a 41. I must say I like the 41 very much. I think the 30 is just as strongly built as the 41.

[Jim_ME]

From what I've read and heard the the Tartan 30 is a good boat. However, if I was planning to do much offshore sailing, my personal preference would be for a more of a full keel design like and Alberg 30 or Cape Dory 28 (both at about the same displacement).

The T30 is a bit more of a MORC racer/cruiser and the short fin keel will keep its wetted surface area low, and is relatively beamy. A full keel may have a bit more natural tracking ability, and its deeper forefoot and slacker bilges should give it an easier motion.

So, as previously with other boats, was curious to see how pronounced the difference was in the performance specs (see chart below from http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html)
which reveal several things...

The A30 motion comfort is a full 50% higher, and its Capsize Ratio is well below the 2.0 limit for an offshore boat, but the T30 is barely below it. Plus the A30 achieves this with 4.25 foot draft, which is considerably below the standard T30 draft of abut 5 feet (and especially the T30 tall rig with 5.5 ft draft).

Looking at the the profiles of the two boats
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=928
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284
and how integrated the long full keel is with the Alberg design and how strong it must be. Also the gradual slope of the A30's keel is much more able to ride up on any reef or shoal.

While the A30 and CD28 (and many other Alberg designs) appear on many of the lists of recommended offshore voyaging boats, I don't believe that I've seen the Tartan 30 on those lists. The [T30] was a popular, lively and roomy club racer/cruiser, but for long distance voyaging that additional motion comfort is an important feature for keeping the crew rested and well fed  especially in heavy weather.
   
For me, the Tartan 27
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=826
is a very appealing smallish cruiser since it has a long full keel/attached rudder, and with its centerboard [up], draws just over 3 feet.

It's interesting to me that the Tartan 27 with this draft has significantly better Capsize Ratio and Motion Comfort specs than the Tartan 30. Having looked at a couple T27s, I've always admired what a great compact dinette/galley/quarter berth/enclosed head layout it has.

There was recently a Tartan 27 (needed a rudder) available for free in my area. I expect that you can probably find an Alberg 30 for about the same price as a Tartan 30.

[Cyric30]

Hello Jim_ME

Thank you for the very nice and thought out reply, it is greatly appreciated.

Wish i could find a boat like the Tartan, but with the long keel, ive yet to see one though. :(
the Albergs an Awesome boat no doubt, but it just doesn't feel like what im looking for :(

and it may be sacrilege to some, but like the look of the Tartan better than most boats im seeing.

From what I've read and heard the the Tartan 30 is a good boat. However, if I was planning to do much offshore sailing, my personal preference would be for a more of a full keel design like and Alberg 30 or Cape Dory 28 (both at about the same displacement).

The T30 is a bit more of a MORC racer/cruiser and the short fin keel will keep its wetted surface area low, and is relatively beamy. A full keel may have a bit more natural tracking ability, and its deeper forefoot and slacker bilges should give it an easier motion.

So, as previously with other boats, was curious to see how pronounced the difference was in the performance specs (see chart below from http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html)
which reveal several things...

The A30 motion comfort is a full 50% higher, and its Capsize Ratio is well below the 2.0 limit for an offshore boat, but the T30 is barely below it. Plus the A30 achieves this with 4.25 foot draft, which is considerably below the standard T30 draft of abut 5 feet (and especially the T30 tall rig with 5.5 ft draft).

Looking at the the profiles of the two boats
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=928
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284
and how integrated the long full keel is with the Alberg design and how strong it must be. Also the gradual slope of the A30's keel is much more able to ride up on any reef or shoal.

While the A30 and CD28 (and many other Alberg designs) appear on many of the lists of recommended offshore voyaging boats, I don't believe that I've seen the Tartan 30 on those lists. The [T30] was a popular, lively and roomy club racer/cruiser, but for long distance voyaging that additional motion comfort is an important feature for keeping the crew rested and well fed  especially in heavy weather.
   
For me, the Tartan 27
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=826
is a very appealing smallish cruiser since it has a long full keel/attached rudder, and with its centerboard [up], draws just over 3 feet.

It's interesting to me that the Tartan 27 with this draft has significantly better Capsize Ratio and Motion Comfort specs than the Tartan 30. Having looked at a couple T27s, I've always admired what a great compact dinette/galley/quarter berth/enclosed head layout it has.

There was recently a Tartan 27 (needed a rudder) available for free in my area. I expect that you can probably find an Alberg 30 for about the same price as a Tartan 30.

[CharlieJ]

"and it may be sacrilege to some, but like the look of the Tartan better than most boats im seeing."

That's why there are so many different boats. The one for you is the one that makes you turn around for one last look as you are walking away down the dock, or rowing away in the dinghy.

I found mine :D

[Jim_ME]

For me, I've usually chosen a boat based on its seaworthiness and sea-kindliness more than its looks, which may be unrelated to these qualities.

Often when I've looked at boats that had a good reputation for these qualities, did not always initially strike me as good looking, but were sometimes an acquired taste.

The Rhodes Meridian 25 is exceptionally seaworthy and sea kindly, especially for its size. Perhaps the reason that these qualities and visual appeal coincide for Charlie is that he has so much experience and knows what is important and works (for him).

I remember Charlie posting a few years ago about his voyage to Mexico delivering a Tartan 41, no doubt a beautiful looking boat, but if I recall correctly, he was not particularly impressed with the boat's sea-kindliness during the long slog hard on the wind.

Of course, when you are delivering a boat and trying to get it somewhere as fast as you reasonably can, comfort is a secondary consideration. If Charlie was cruising and had time, he would certainly have done that trip a more comfortable and enjoyable way.

I'm sure that boat is fine for the kind of cruising that many people do, with much of it being coastal where you can pick your weather window and stay in port or motor along the sheltered ICW. This is why I prefaced my comments about the Tartan 30 by saying that if you are planning to do much offshore sailing, in my (and I believe many others with more experience) opinion, you can do better.

There are indeed many different boats out there, but some are far better at certain uses than others. Like many things we all gain experience from our mistakes, and from owning boats that we discover are not the best ones for us. The qualities in a boat that seemed important, may tend to mature and shift over time and with experience. The type of sailing/cruising that we do may change over time, and so may the needs in a boat.

When someone asks for advice or comments on a particular boat, or type of boat, I'm happy to give it, but understand that people have to do what they think is best from where they currently are, and will learn from experience what is important and works for them. That's what we all do, more or less. so make the best decisions that you can and get out there and start gaining experience, and make changes as you go.

[Godot]

As I recall, the Tartan 30 had the engine way forward in the cabin under a leg of the U shaped settee. I always thought of this as being a very convenient place for working on the motor. Perhaps less pleasant if you are trying to take a nap there.

By the numbers, the Tartan 30 compares very favorably to my Bayfield 29 in every category except draft (and then only if shallow draft is important to you). I'm certainly willing to take my Bayfield across an ocean (once I replace the rigging) and hopefully will some day even with a slightly above 2.0 CSF. Those numbers are, after all, just guidelines, and I feel very secure in the Bayfield when the weather picks up. In any case, even stringently following those guidelines you would come in under the threshold.

All this to say, if you wanted to do offshore sailing, I think the boat (as usual) will take all that you can handle. Perhaps not the best choice to round the horn in the southern winter; but then, few boats are really built for that, and so are fewer sailors.

Compared to the Alberg 30, the Tartan is bigger with a more comfortable interior (I like the galley along the side layout...others disagree). Probably more nimble. Probably easier to back up (full keels suck here). I think the benefits of full keels are probably a little over stated, although if I have to run aground a full keel makes me more comfortable. Full keels are also less likely to get tangled in lobster/crab traps, though with the big protective skeg on the Tartan's rudder you would probably be OK here. The Alberg may have a more comfortable motion in big seas.

I haven't heard much bad said about the Tartan. If you like the way she looks, can find one in decent shape for a fair price, and feel comfortable aboard, I figure you could do a lot worse.

In the end I guess it depends on what type of sailing you are going to do (really...few of us cross oceans with any regularity), and what floats your emotional boat.

[CharlieJ]

JUST completed a re-model of the main cabin of a Vanguard 32. It had a dinette and a side galley and the owners were talking of buying a different boat because of the lack of room. There was literally no way to pass by the cook without  sidling .

I ripped out the entire galley- stove, sink Icebox and replaced it with a large settee berth. Lots of Sawzall work  :D

The first pic shows before, the second after all the deconstruction and placing new bulk heads, the next the settee minus the lid to the new under settee ice chest                       

[CharlieJ]

Then of course, the boat needed a new galley.  Edited to read-It had a Qtr berth on both side, open to the cockpit through the cockpit lockers-BAD idea!!!

Closed off the opening on the port berth, and put in a new galley

Couple of pics

First is making a pattern to close off the opening, second is the finished galley. She now has a U-shaped space where she ( or he) can work and be totally out of the way of the passageway.

And lastly, a pic showing how delighted the owners are with the new layout. They now have room for more than two people to sit in the main cabin, and talk.

I detest dinettes on smaller boats.

[Cyric30]

Thank you Jim, Gogot & CJ for your replies :)

Ok we've been talking motion comfort, and i wonder, what range is acceptable for boats in this size category? obviously higher is better :)

Gogot,
I believe i once read that you didn't think the Bayfield was suitable for offshore? am i remembering wrong or has your thoughts changed.? and if so what brought you to this ?

Yes the engine is in the forward Cabin, and while ive not worked on an engine in a sailboat, i have worked on engines in alot of other places, and i know it is much easier to work on one and maintain it well when you have easy access to it. so to me thats a Plus.

The Draft is 5', which is the limit for most boats ive been looking at, i wish i could just pull it up on the beach at night and tie it to a palm tree so it doesn't run away on me, but haven't found one yet :) ( See, this is where someone will post such a boat for me, see im sneaky like that :D )
the

Gogot you hit on one of the reasons im liking the boat, its a bit beamier than most in this era, and has more room, so a bit more space to live and to provision. extra water, fuel, and food is always nice, as long as your not adversely effecting the boat.

As to the Side Layout, i think i will stick with the traditional aft layout, it just seems like it takes up to much room, and CJ makes a valid point i hadent thought of about always having to move out the way if someone needs by. but if someone can make a valid argument for one im all ears,

Also, i cant find anything specific, i dont think its is a boat with a liner, as that wasn't a thing until after this boat was designed and being built for many years, but would like to make sure is it or is it not a liner boat.

And i imagine you are right the boat will be able to handle more than most ppl including me.

keep the discussion going, this is how we learn new things

i am especially interested in Jims Motion comfort assessment as i had seen it but not understood it well :)

My, what a disjointed and ugly post i have made for you...LOL

:D

[Godot]

I'm not sure I ever said the Bayfield was unsuitable for offshore work as such, although it's possible some of my ruminations went that way at one time. I probably wouldn't take it around Cape Horn. But then, I'm not likely to go around Cape Horn in any boat, so that point is moot.

There are some limitations worth considering in the Bayfield; but they are manageable. Only twenty gallons of water tankage. Eventually I'll at least double that with a new flexible tank under the port settee, and maybe another where the holding tank used to be. The stove is not gimbaled making cooking underway a challenge. I picked up a Force 10 Seacook stove on ebay which works well enough when things get too bumpy for the regular stove. The head is in the bow of the boat, which is a great place for it except for when at sea where the motion makes using it a challenge. There is always a bucket if necessary. Otherwise, the Bayfield seems like a suitable boat, strong and stable. I feel super confident in it, although I miss the nimbleness and windward ability of the little Seafarer. Heck, if I suddenly found myself with enough cash to not have to work for a few years I think she'd be fine on a circumnavigation.

I had the side galley on my Seafarer 24 and generally liked it. It was a very workable space. Occasionally I would wish I had a starboard settee; but not all that often. Of course, I mostly single handed that boat, so never had to worry about bumping in to other crew. Also, I think the long galley is easier for two people to work at simultaneously, and perhaps makes the companionway a little less crowded. I like the layout. Lots of others don't. Definitely a personal preference thing.

Oh, and very definitely not a big deal but I've seen my screen name misspelled a bunch of late: it is Godot with a D, after the Samuel Becket play Waiting for Godot, which was a favorite of the ex-wifes and what she named the Seafarer. I'd change it; but I'm afraid that would get confusing.