Bilge Pumps, employment, care and feeding.

[s/v Faith]

Update;

  Since starting this thread, I ended up going with a little different set up.

  First is an Atwood Sahara 750 GPH pump. It is mounted at the lowest point of the bilge with an internal float switch.  It handles the normal splashes that come into the bilge.  It draws 2.8a running under load, and with the >3' head pumps an honest 450 GPH.



  Second, I looked at a bunch of pumps for a larger capacity back up...  Ended up with a Rule 'Gold' 2000 GPH pump.  It was pricey, but I liked the way it was built.  It is mounted just aft of the Atwood, and slightly higher.  It is also pumping a head of >3' so I get something like 1500 GPH out of it.


  These two pumps running together should go for something like 10 hours on my current battery.  I would more realistically expect something less then that but plan to double the capacity of the battery bank next spring.

  Then there is the Plastimo 925 manual pump that I will mount in the cockpit.  It is rated at 60 GPH, but I guess that has more to do with how fast I pump it.  It wants a 1" hose, which I am having some trouble finding in the crush resistant hose.... but I will work out something.


_{Slightly different model, looks the same though}

  Then there are two of the Thirsty mate pumps aboard. (one of the 18" and one of the 36")


They don't take up much space, and are easy to grab and run to go help someone else out.

  Then there is always my 'Bacon & associates' 7l Rubber bucket.  (I love this thing, has a great handle, and slightly flexes..... wonderful bucket!)

[Pixie Dust]

I have a black bucket on Pixie exactly like Faith posted.  I bought it at a Horse Feed Store and I really like it! So much that I went back and bought a bright blue one too.  :)  I like its sturdiness and flexibility.

As for Adrift's question regarding gift receipt for my gift to Pixie Dust.  The policy is no refunds and no returns.  She is stuck with her gift whether she likes me or not.  :D I have bought the old girl LOTS of nice things during the last several months, including new bilge works and hoses.  Her owner is going broke trying to keep her in the lifestyle that she has been accustomed to and deserving of.  So much so that she is quitting her job to take her girl on high sea adventures.  She is one spoiled little boat, but her owner loves doting on her.   :D ;)

[CharlieJ]

We also use one of the horse feed buckets aboard Tehani- but be warned.

After several weeks it WILL begin leaving black marks on your deck when you set it down. They aren't hard to scrub off and the bucket is good enough to live with the problem, but it WILL happen.

[s/v Faith]

Had an experience with another boat today that made this thread very timely.  I posted them on the PearsonAriel.org forum Ebb brought up some realy good points on the  forum.  I quoted his posted coments;

.....Good connections. Use Ancor adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors. Have another piece of shrink wrap on the wire and after the above has cooled shrink that one over it all.

One advantage of the 'shallow bilge' on #226 is that by placing both pumps under the sink, they are both in the deepest part of the bilge, and close enough to the electrical panel to run the leads directly off of the pumps and the switch for the Rule, to a dedicated terminal block. (outside the bilge)  I like to remove the cover off of a crimp connector, and crimp the bare terminal directly on to the wire. I then solder the crimped part of the connection, and heat shrink over the soldered end. This seals the end of the wire and the end of the crimp where the ends of the wires would normally be exposed is sealed with solder. I wired my old MG this way, and never had another electrical problem... no small feat for an MG   ;D

Set the system up for auto with manual overide. Wire bilge pumps directly to battery so that when you hit the battery selector switch when leaving the boat no matter what it says on the switch the boat is still protected.

I don't have a battery selector switch, but have the 750GPH pump on a selector switch where I can pump it manually or set it to automatic. (standard DPDT switch, with rule cover plate).

The 2000GPH pump is hardwired through the mercury switch. It does not share the same fuse as the other pump.

THe need for redundant wiring was made apparent just this afternoon. An Alberg 30 that is in my marina, that I watch of an out of town friend was noticed to be sitting low in the stern......

... she had had her floor boards floating once before when... the 'solid state' switch had failed. I had pumped her out and rigged a temporary spare float switch. When the owner came down, I recommended he consider a second pump, mounted higher then the other.

He mounted a rule 1500, on it's own float switch slightly higer then the smaller pump.

I was surprised today to look below and find the floor boards floating again... 

I checked the power, it was on. I checked the battery status, it was good..... I then reached for the power cable for the lower pump. When I pulled on it to raise the pump, the pump started to run. It turns out he had connected both pumps through the same power wire, and there was a bad connection through the terminal that connected it to the battery.



Fixing the connection brought both pumps to life.

Check out Snake River Electronics' "Bilge Buddy Pump Control" that senses water level in bilge without floats and can be set so rapid pump cycling can't occur.

I do not believe that the rapid cycling is as much of a problem in practice on our boats as it may be where longer runs of hose are necessary.



The Rule switches, as I would expect most, are balanced so that they have a 'tipping point' where the water has to rise to a given height (say 2") before they turn on, but don't turn off until the water is below some much lower level (like 1/2 or 3/4"). I have read where some see the water that is contained in the hose flowing back into the bilge when the power is turned off and cycling the pump back on. The quart or two held in the hoses are not enough to come anywhere near raining the water high enough to 'tip' the floats back on.


As for solid state switches.... my experiences with electronics are that if it can fail, it will..... I have personally seen two of these 'better mouse traps' that have failed.

......No manual pump can keep up with a 1" hole located two feet below the waterline. Nor can you depend on the largest electric Rule to keep up with a gusher like that! Have access to all parts of the hull. Carry a sailcloth hole-diaper as well.

Agree, have my tapered plugs, quick set underwater epoxy, and rubber tarp patch all where I can get at em...   ;)

Edit, Captain Smollett: Fixed Link Tag

[Captain Smollett]

I do not believe that the rapid cycling is as much of a problem in practice on our boats as it may be where longer runs of hose are necessary.

The quart or two held in the hoses are not enough to come anywhere near raining the water high enough to 'tip' the floats back on.

Just wondering if it would be worthwhile to install a simple check valve on the outflow side of the pump in those cases where back flow could be a problem.  Might such a plan also help in a seaway?  A simple check valve should not hurt the net flow rate too much, could be removed if it failed in the CLOSED position, etc.  Seems like a 'better' solution to me than some electronic gizmo to prevent such cycling.

[CapnK]

Just wondering if it would be worthwhile to install a simple check valve on the outflow side of the pump in those cases where back flow could be a problem.

It would be an even more important thing to have if your bilge pump outflow line began to siphon the sea outside back into the boat. Say, fer instance, if it came apart from the pump fitting...

The bottom of the bilge (and the bottom of that pipe) are below sea level most times, so there is a very real possibility this could happen. If for no other reason, that is why I think a check valve on the bilge outflow line is a Good Thing. :)

[Fortis]

I had a one way valve/backflow arrestoron my main electric bilge pump to stop backflow out of the pipe....I think it actually knocked about 25% of the bilge pump's capacity right off.

we did a test with a 20 litre bucket of water into the bilges and timing how long the pump took to get rid of the water and shut itself down. based on the results, I got rid of the valve.



Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

Actually, check valves do reduce the outflow quite a bit.  There have been some tests about the use of check valves for bilge pumps and most of the results are that it reduces the effective output too much to be useful.  Most electric bilge pumps are impeller-based and don't really work all that well if there is any back pressure in the output line.  Also, most bilge pumps are rated at O' head, and that is usually not the case in most installations, so the effective rated flow on the pumps is significantly lower than the "box" rating—adding a checkvalve makes this even worse.

[Fortis]

Yep, and going for a diaphram pump only makes things worse because they ALWAYS go on strike right when you need them most (one fo the reasons diaphrams work for manual pumps is that they are huge and can cope with "lumps". Scaled down to the size of automated impellor type pumps they become very fragile.

One of the most bullet proof bilge pumps I have ever met was on an old couta boat (circa 1917). It used an arcemdes screw based pump made of bronze, could be driven by a small slectric motor (obviously an update) via a pulley, by the engine (which has a sort of horizontal pulley/flywheel coming out of the TOP, presumably like a PTO in order to run a powered capstan for hauling nets and such, but switching the belt over to the bilge pump was still a possibility. As a last resort there was a knob for hand cranking built into the top of the pumps pulley wheel. The bottom of the screw pump was in the deepest part of the bilge (pretty much directly under the engine) and the top of it was above waterline, so the water had active lift all the way and then ran downhill in its pipe to exit via the through hull.

Clunky? Oh most definately!...But I have sort of been thinking of it whistfully every time I have had to pull out some boat's Rule pump and replace it with yet another one that I know is going to be dead in a couple of years.


Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

Alex-

The only problem with a Archimedes-screw type pump is that you have to have a certain minimum rotation speed otherwise, the water won't be forced up it...

I still like big manual diaphragm pumps for bilge use.  They generally have more capacity, and greater ability to deal with rise than do the little electric bilge pumps...but they require a lot more muscle to operate. 

Of course, having a two-inch deep bilge on the Pretty Gee means that my bilge pump is actually a "navy" type piston pump... :D 

[s/v Faith]

FWIW,

The issue I mentioned with the ports on the manual pump.....

It wants a 1" hose, which I am having some trouble finding in the crush resistant hose.... but I will work out something.

  Found the answer at Lowes today.  Schedule 40 PVC barbed adapters, that take the 1" line to 1.25".  I would not go smaller, but have no problem going to a larger intake and discharge hose.  1.25" is pretty easy to find.   ;D

[CapnK]

I still think a check valve is a good thing on an electric impeller pump, at least in my case.

A manual w/diaphragm serves as it's own check valve, but water can run backwards right past an impeller if siphoning starts up.

I regard electric pumps simply as a convenience, so the flow restriction is one of those trade-offs for peace of mind. Any real pumping out of appreciable amounts of water is going to be handled manually*. Besides which, if the boat is *really* flooded, there's a good chance that the electrics ain't-a gonna be working anyway...

Craigs post made me wonder if those who are more dependent on electrics could use an adapter to size-up the hose before it reaches the check valve, and thus use a larger check valve so that flow restriction was cancelled out by the increased volume of the larger size. Does that make sense? :)



*(unless of course I am not on the boat, in which case it is unlikely that the boat will be holed, or siphoning, since it won't be moving or at sea, and I won't have thru-hulls which could catastrophically fail, allowing large amounts of water into the boat.)

[Parrothead]

Just my 2 cents so i hope West Marine doesn't get mad at me.

1)Electric "Marine" bilge pumps are poop.

2)The best insurance against foundering are good pumps. Easily used.

3)Get the Best and Biggest Manual Diaphragm Pump that will fit.Give up beer for Lent and it will be paid for.

4)Get a engine driven crash pump if you can shoehorn it in AND/OR a "Real" water pump from an industrial supply house. I bought many of these when I had my machine shop and they would empty a 55 gallon drum in a minute or two depending on size. In fact they moved so much water you could "power" wash with them by reducing the fitting. Yes I know there not "Marine" rated. But they move water in a hurry and are heavy and well built. Industrial products dint suffer from the need for 300% mark up that "Marine" stores are looking for so your hard earned dollars go for pump and not advertisement in Sail magazine.

5)Those little Rule pumps are for nuisance water only. Don't rely on poop for an emergency please.


as an example here is a bronze (not plastic) self priming flexable impeller pump that will pump water and debris at 5 gallon a minute with a 10 foot head with a 1/2 hordepower motor.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5577792&PMT4NO=0



this one will get you about 20 to 25 gallon per minute (really) with the average bilge setup in a sailboat.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5577789&PMT4NO=0

[Grime]

Yesterday I found that I have a bilge pump, tho not hooked up to power and not even to an outside thru hull drain.  :o

Question
Would it be best to put a thru hull fitting in or use one of the 3 that I already have.? One is to drain the small anchor locker and the other two or cockpit drains.

Any thought would be appreciated.
David

[Bill NH]

Your bilge pump discharge needs to be above the waterline even when heeled.  Otherwise water can back-siphon through the pump and sink your boat.  This will most likely rule out tee-ing into your cockpit drains.

The problem with using an anchor locker drain is that it's way up in the bow, and generally the low point of the bilge is aft of midships.  That's a long hose run, all of which will drain back into the bilge every time the pump shuts off.  Your bilge will always have that much water in it...  Some people use a check valve in the discharge line just past the pump, but I think it's not the best idea because of the possibility of it clogging with bilge debris...

I'd recommend a bronze or nylon fitting on the transom if close to the pump, or in the topsides just below the rubrail.  Because it's up high you just need the overboard fitting, no valve required.  And the installation is easy, once you're comfortable with the idea of drilling holes in your boat...

... and when you tie your dinghy alongside, remember which side you put the bilge pump discharge on...  ;)

[Grime]

Thanks Bill,
I figured that the 3 would be out. The location of the bilge pump at the present is midship under one of the storage lockers. Access is easy any other location would be very hard to get at. I could mount the fitting just under the rub rail.

I'm not real comfortable about drilling holes in her. Drilled lots of holes in wool. I assume that I would use a standard 3/4" hole saw like I use for wood. Would I need to epoxy the inside hole edges then install the hull fitting or would just using something like 3M 5200 work?

Have a great week
David

[AdriftAtSea]

If the section of hull you're cutting through is cored, then you'll want to ream out the core and fill the section between the two layers of glass with thickened epoxy.  If it is solid fiberglass, you can just use 3M 4000 to seal the fitting and hull from leaking. I wouldn't use 5200 since it is very strong adhesive, but more importantly, will attack many of the plastics that the through-hulls are made of. I'd also recommend going with a Marelon through-hull rather than a plain plastic one.

I don't recommend using a check valve in a bilge pump line, since it will greatly reduce the pump's output.

[Grime]

Thanks for the additional information. I have the feeling that it is cored. I guess I'll just wait until I have the bottom painted and have them install the fitting. Don't want to bite off more than I want to chew.

[AdriftAtSea]

Grime-

I don't believe that is the case.  From what I've read, the starwind 22 had a solid fiberglass hull.  However, it did have a rather complete hull liner, which might complicate the installation a bit.

[Grime]

However, it did have a rather complete hull liner, which might complicate the installation a bit.

How would this complicate the installation? I know so little about sailboats and have found almost no information on the Starwind.