LED NAV and Anchor lights, Bebi and others discussion....

[CapnK]

Objection! Hearsay...

...but I will go look for that, or post and ask Norm, to see if I can unearth the One Real Time this happened...

After that?

The Grail. ;)

[CapnK]

Found this referenced while searching, thought it of enough interest to add here - a test of some different LED bulbs, I think intended only for interior use.

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=103101&#post580357

[Tim]

Objection! Hearsay...

...but I will go look for that, or post and ask Norm, to see if I can unearth the One Real Time this happened...

After that?

The Grail. ;)

I searched and could not come up with anything on TSBB

[CapnK]

Same, me neither. Posted about it, asking...

[Captain Smollett]

It was a month or two ago, and I've noticed in the past that there is a 'black hole' window on TSBB where posts don't show up on search of the current active board OR the archives...I've always wondered about that.

I'm pretty sure that's where I read it (I don't read very many forums), so hopefully we can find it.

Or maybe I dreamed it ...

[CapnK]

Sounds right - the Search results I received seem to have a gap with no results from between the past few weeks. to back 6-8 months ago.

[AdriftAtSea]

Just as a heads up, according to Maine Sail, who had spoken with the owner of Dr. LED, only the Aqua Signal 40 LED anchor light is currently USCG certified. The bulbs for the Aqua Signal 25 series are NOT certified by the USCG for use in any fixtures as of yet.

Just FYI-

DR. LED now makes USCG certified LED replacement bulbs for the AquaSignal Series 25 and 40 navigation lights.  This makes the Aquasignal 25 series one of the least expensive ways to get into LED navigation lights that are USCG certified.  While certification isn't REQUIRED, it is a good idea to have USCG Certified light fixture/bulb setups, since if you are involved in a collision and the lights on your boat aren't certified, you can be found liable for not having USCG compliant lighting.  :) Yes, there have been court cases that have hinged on this point... and a lot of money has been made/lost on it as well.

[Captain Smollett]

The question seems to be "what difference does it make if a fixture or bulb is USCG certified."

All certification means is that a test was done (by an independent lab as requested by manufacturer, the CG does not do the tests) and a device was found to pass.  The converse is absolutely NOT true - a device that is NOT certified may meet the requirements of the law (and would pass certification testing if done).

We see this with meds, particularly with pediatric meds.  FDA approval for a drug for a particular use does NOT mean it cannot/should not be used in other contexts..just that the testing for that context has not been done yet.  In fact, there are VERY VERY few meds "approved" for pediatric use, in part because most people are loathe to submit their children into clinical trials.

In other words, much of the talk about 'certification' is hot air...used as a marketing tool by the people who paid for the testing and sought the cert...at least that's the case in clinical trials of medications.  It seems to me to be the case in other areas as well, whether mechanical testing, fire hazard testing or, believe it or not, navigation light testing.

To Recap: Certified light means it has been tested and shown to meet the legal requirements.  A non-certified light may well meet the legal requirements; one cannot infer from the absence of certification that there is ANY deficiency with the operation of the light.  Until we see specific case law of decisions going against non-certified equipment, and that is the SOLE REASON for a specific decision, I don't think, and this is my opinion, one should pay much attention to USCG Certification on nav lights, so long as the visibility requirements are met.

[s/v Faith]

FWIW,

  We used our OWL in the cockpit, hanging from the backstay.  I kept my (significantly less visible) 'legal' light at the masthead.

  The OWL was to keep us from getting run down by the drunken idiot in a stinkpot.  The 'legal' light at the masthead was only used to humor some pinhead with a badge local law enforcement officer if we were in an area where they were about.

Also,

  I have personally verified that my OWL is visible from over 3 miles at night....

[s/v Faith]

Maybe I should.. in the interest of full disclosure.. mention that I was eating government recalled peanut butter on my toast when I was typing that...




















;)

[CharlieJ]

I wasn't aware that jars of peanut butter were in anyway involved in the recall. Hope not cause I live on the stuff ;D ;D From what I've seen the recall was only for the "paste" made by that one company. They don't do peanut butter. Thankfully.

As for the gap in archives on TSBB. There is a period of time, which varies depending on frequency of posts, when posts are unavailable because they are in process of being moved to archives. Just how long they are unavailable and how many posts are involved, largely depends on how busy Phil is at the time.

There was also a gap created when TSBB experienced some problems with a server, writing zero length records. Many many posts were lost during that time.

[rtbates]

LED nav lights are great.  One of the least expensive way to get LED lighting that is USCG certified on boats the size of most here is to install AquaSignal Series 25 nav lights and then get the Dr. LED replacement LED bulbs for it.  A couple of dabs of dielectric grease, and you're good to go.  Keep the bulbs that came with the fixtures as backups. :)

That's how I did mine, except I already had the AquaSignal 25s. They just had very clouded lens that I replaced. DR. LEDs are quite a bit brighter than the stock 25 bulbs by the way.

[CharlieJ]

Quite interesting that I can't use the LED bulbs- we have a combination red/green on the bow and they specifically state to NOT use the white bulbs in colored lens- use red behind red and green behind green. Leaves us out doesn't it?

Besides that, it would run about $150 bucks to change our three lights- Stern, steaming and combo bow. I can change a LOT of bulbs for that money ;)

[Marc]

I have consulted with the Iowa DNR and they said nothing on LED or not, just that it has to be visible for 2 miles.  So...guess what I am going with?  LED of course!!! Marc

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollet—

The major problem with using non-USCG certified bulb/fixture combinations is if you are involved in an accident.  The fact that you're using non-certified navigation lights will come up, especially if the other person is at fault.  I can think of several cases where this has been a major point in the case in determining liability. Their lawyers will argue that you're partially, if not wholly responsible, for the accident because you were using uncertified light fixtures. YMMV.  It isn't that the LED bulbs don't work or aren't bright enough... it is a legal point that can cause a lot of headaches.

[Tim]

Dan, We have been searching the web for the actual "cases" everybody keeps alluding to. Over on TSBB the discussion continues.

There has been a case that "Main Sail" has been involved with that he feels went better because the light was certified. But others feel that ultimately in litigation it will come down to proving the light could be seen irregardless of certification.

An attorney did a "LexisNexus" search for cases where certification alone was a deciding factor. This is what he posted, I am purposely not giving his name as I have not asked him if I could.

"I did a LEXIS search for "navigation light" near "certified" and turned up 326 reported cases in all state and federal courts. I searched those 326 for "negligence" which reduced the number to 26. Of those, I found no reported decisions involving a failure to use certified lights. I was able to find reported decisions involving a failure to display lights meeting the standards, but no issue of whether the lights had been certified."

[Captain Smollett]

  I can think of several cases where this has been a major point in the case in determining liability.

Can you provide citations for those cases, please?  We've been trying to track down these cases all day (as Tim alluded in his post), and as yet, none have emerged in which this issue was a deciding factor.

[Marc]

As most of you know I'm restoring a '73 Venture 242.  Originally it had the combination red/green light on the bow.  What I would like to do is put these on the side of the boat such as that on a catalina.  Is there a rule governing on how far back or how close forward to the bow that these need to be?  I'm also considering a trilight on the mast head when underway.  It's starting to get warmer here and spring is knocking on the door.  And I'm getting very restless I want to finish her and get her into the water this year.  Marc

[Joe Pyrat]

I don't think so Marc, on a Pearson Triton they are located on both sides of the dog house.  I opted for having them right together on the bow pulpit though, makes wiring less complicated and in the case of a Triton, they don't get covered by the foresail.

[CharlieJ]

On the Meridian they were also on the sides of the house- VERY bad place for them. Heeled, the leeward light was totally blanketed, either by the sail or the boat itself.

I put a combination light under the bow pulpit, as I did on my previous boat. NOTHING blocks that.

Here's the installation on the prior boat -