CapnK and "Katie Marie"

[Pixie Dust]

OK-  I am impressed!!  You boys are pretty darn smart on this site. 
What a clever process CapnK.  Amazing what we can come up with when we chose to be frugal.   :D
Looking forward to progress reports.  Molly looked like she was overseeing the whole project and was comfortable with lying under the ladder.   :)

[CapnK]

Last Sunday I was, as ever, contemplating the boat, and more specifically, my interior and overall plans for the boat.

When I first dropped the mast and cut away the bulkhead a bit ago (pic below), I'd planned to construct and install a strongback straightaway. Gradually, as I tried to come up with what would (for me) be the 'bestmost' way to do that, I realized that I needed to give more thought to the overall interior before making the strongback, since it will all be tied together. Everything in these boats adds to or takes away from everything else, I know. So I've held off on the strongback while I figured out my overall plan, which was close to being fully conceived, but not quite.



One thing I will do which quite literally will tie the exterior rigging into the interior plans is to go to hull-mounted chainplates. I want them to be easily inspect-able and maintainable from the inside of the boat as well as the outside. Since interior stuff will be all around (and maybe over) the attachment points, I knew I had to finish my interior concept and place them within it before constructing anything.

SO... that leads to last Sunday, and interior thoughts, which I'll get to after another bit I want to add in here real quick...

A couple of weeks ago I got in touch with James Baldwin, 2-time circumnavigator aboard the Triton "Atom". He's a really nice guy. I spoke with him about his voyages, boat, collisions, and unsinkability. I told him of all my plans regarding my construction with the ultimate goal of unsinkability, and he is of the opinion that it will all work. ( Kewl! :) ) Until last Sunday, though, my design was unbalanced. I had good lockers planned for everywhere but the port berth, which I plan to use as my primary place of rest.

The 'default' berth is just under the waterline, and keeping that area open in case of a hull breach would allow a huge space for water, taking away from flotation *and* balance, if the boat were flooded. It would also be a 'light' area of the boat, so I had to counterbalance it with a near-equally empty area in the v-berth to control heeling. Not very efficient, and efficiency is an important consideration for what I am trying to do. I need to use every possible part of the boat.

Quick mention of 2 other "wishes" I've had for the boat: a dinette w/table (for comfort and usability, a la "Braveheart"), and an interior seat where I could see out the cabin deadlights when belowdecks.

I'd thought about the dinette a while back, but had pretty much decided that it was out. I plan to use the area under both cabin berths for water tankage (bladders) and flotation, so I didn't want to cut part of that out for the footroom needed if there was a dinette.

As far as the seat, I thought I might be able to, at some point in time, add a mount somewhere for a pedestal seat, like those you see on a bass boat. Maybe not the best solution, but a possibility...

I hadn't considered either of these in quite a long time.

But the brain works in mysterious ways, and that leads (at last) to last Sunday, when I realized I might be able to have a dinette *on top of* the current port berth, a dinette which would also convert into a berth. By making it to the height of the current counter top, it would be plenty long enough for sleeping, would give me storage underneath the ends *and* a footwell, without the need to get into the area where my water tanks and flotation will be. Eureka! ;)

I tossed the idea around in my head this past week, and did some measuring. It seemed like it would work, so yesterday I got busy and slapped together a proof-of-concept dinette/berth. I disassembled the proof-of-concept v-berth storage bins :), and used those pieces to make up a not-pretty, but working, version of the dinette idea.

It is great! :) Sitting at it, the view out the deadlights is perfect, and there is enough room for 2 people to sit across from each other comfortably (if not expansively). I had my dock neighbor, who is 6' 1" tall, try it out, and there was plenty of headroom for him.

The 'table' part drops down between the seats to make a normal Ariel-length single berth (which has a more-level view out the companionway). I did sit up a bit quickly this morning and hit my head on the underside of the sidedeck (not too hard, though, thankfully), but I imagine that I'll learn not to do that pretty quickly. ;)

Right now this is just roughed in, but it works. I have a bunch of ideas to make it much more polished in its final form (fiddles for the table, folding seatback for the after seat, etc...). It helps solve a few problems, and gives me those 'wishes'. The storage underneath the ends allows me to balance the boat better, and will provide more closed space which can be sealed against H2O ingress to add to the overall flotation. I have the table hung from the overhead at it's outer end for support, instead of from
underneath as was done on "Braveheart", and I'll probably keep that element of the design.

Enough babbling, here are some pictures:

[Captain Smollett]

Good place for chartwork, too, right?  As I recall, your boat did not have a 'chart table.'

Very cool, Kurt.  Keep the ideas and solutions coming and keep 'em Creative Commons, too.  I'm soaking it all up for the future!

;D

[Dougcan]

Very cool, Kurt.  Keep the ideas and solutions coming and keep 'em Creative Commons, too.  I'm soaking it all up for the future!

Too late Captain Smollett!   ;D  Kurt already copyrighted and patented all of his ideas, thoughts and works!  ::)

Actually Kurt, it looks like you have a good thing going on in there!

(We need a whistling and a "high five" smileys here!)



Edit by Captain Smollett: fixed quote tag

[Frank]

Gotta love the 'open concept'.....looks WAY bigger!!  Keep the pics coming as it progress's

[s/v Faith]

Kurt,

  Man, I REALLY like the idea of the dinette, and the execution is great (maintaining the settee).

  I can not do that on board Faith, as I need both berths for my queen berth.

  Couple questions;

How does using the counter top as a foot well affect it's use as the galley?  I know you don't stow stuff there any more (I am still using your old teak organizer, thanks again) but what about the stove?  Will there be a cushion that fits the berth, and if so, where will it go when you are making dinner?

  How do you think the comfort of the berth will be being higher from the center of roll?  Do you think being up higher will make a difference?

  I hope your mock up checks out, it must be really nice to look out the cabin windows sitting below.  ;D  (There is a Pearson 300 in my marina, it has a dinette that allows you to look out the cabin windows, I have always admired that about that boat).

[CapnK]

John - Actually, I am suing a guy down the dock who *stole* my idea of storing a bicycle on deck as a deterrent to thieves. The gall of some people!!!

I told him he could use my intellectual property if he paid me a mere $15 month (that's *only* $0.50 per day!). However, he went ahead and used my ideas without paying (he said other people did it before I did - pfft), so after he ignored my Cease and Desist letter, we started the court case.





::) ;D Of course, I am kidding. But it's not too far-fetched, these days. ;)

Anyway, yep, it's a chart table, too, although I'll also have plenty of big flat areas for that on top of the many lockers.

How does using the counter top as a foot well affect it's use as the galley?  I know you don't stow stuff there any more (I am still using your old teak organizer, thanks again) but what about the stove?  Will there be a cushion that fits the berth, and if so, where will it go when you are making dinner?

  How do you think the comfort of the berth will be being higher from the center of roll?  Do you think being up higher will make a difference?

Craig - I'm think that, kind of like in 'Braveheart', I will be moving my sink over to starboard, where even now most of my galley work is done. I want to move the sink because I am also (pretty sure about this) going to remove most of the stairs/counter under the c'way, replacing them with a retractable ladder, or one mounted to the side. I drew it up that way on one of my posts on the Ariel site, you might remember it (Edit: I did the dinette-adding to this pic last week... :) ):



And ladder up:



Being higher seems to make a little difference, but not that much - the top of this new berth is (only) 13.5" above the old one, maybe 8" above the at-rest waterline. I don't think it'd work as a good sea berth, without some substantial lee cloths. ;)

I'm actually planning to make a removable canvas cot-style 'hammock' that will mount low and in the middle of the boat for my sea berth (on bars that attach to the cabinets either side). This idea came to me because in almost every sea tale involving small boats and big storms, the people in it wind up sleeping on the cabin sole. So I thought it might be a good idea to go ahead and have a slightly more comfortable accommodation for that eventuality. :D

[CapnK]

Gotta love the 'open concept'.....looks WAY bigger!!  Keep the pics coming as it progress's

Frank - it feels a lot bigger! :D I dig it. 8) Will do on the pics, whenever I have anything of significance to show.

[s/v Faith]

As SOON as I saw your reply, before I read it.... I remembered the galley being on the starboard side (insert sound of slapping forehead here).   ;D

 Yes, I think that would work out quite nicely.  I really do like this set up, and it also addresses another problem that you never really hear much about but that I have experienced / thought about.

 You are at anchor, waiting on a wx window to make a passage... it is raining.... you have been there for 2, 3, 4, days.... I think sitting at a table playing cards beats the heck out of laying around in a berth all day.  Or better yet, the ability to go back and forth between the two.

[Zen]

Good Ideas. Looks the my Islander arrangment.

I wish I had thought of that when I had my Airel.  :'(

[CapnK]

The port-side dinette remains, is in use daily, and is quite the cats meow, and so has earned a keeper-spot in the final plan. It is sleep-able, but - a couple weeks experience have shown that it is rather nicer to have a horizontal pad which doesn't need setting up when the eyes get droopy.

This, with mulling over flotation equations, and fiddling with the interior, took me down other lanes of thought, so 'tis the v-berth where I have been sleeping, and will do so when not at sea.

I slept on 4" thick cushions on top of 11" high plastic storage bins placed in the v-berth area while I tried this theory out. Worked well, except the side-deck has too much proximity when one is lying on their, well, side. A few days ago I quicky-built in a berth at an 8" height, and that has proven much more comfy, so the entire v-berth area will be elevated approx. 8" above the original level when finished. Under the cushions will be lockers with gasketed, sealable lids. Going with the center pole for mast support.

Starboard side hanging locker is coming out, and the whole counter and cabinetry along there will be shifted forward into that space. One of the buggers which has been plaguing me is what to do with the space in the extreme aft corners of the settee area. Hard to get to, tucked under the side deck and forward cockpit seat corner. Have been planning on removing the under-companionway stairs and sink, opening that area up and as noted before in this too-long thread, using a ladder for access to/from deck. Another bugger has been the porta-potti, which I plan to keep in lieu of a head and the associated plumbing. So.... I'm going to try for a small enclosed head/hanging wet locker to starboard of the companionway, potti on a slide out-shelf. If they can do it in a Flicka... ;)

Here's a drawing to help visualize some of this.

[CapnK]

Here's more-or-less where I'll be putting foam and sealed lockers in order to make this boat float in case the sea gets in. Blue lines represent 1" thick foam panels with luan plywood skins, skinned and tabbed in with glass to seal it all completely. Solid blue areas will be solid foam, glassed in. Anchor locker is getting split in two horizontally, the area where the rode will lie will be sealed off from the boats interior, and will drain directly overboard a la Geoff's "Uhuru" and Frank/Adam/Howards #50.

I'll be reducing the area where water can lie within the boat, nearly filling all bilge areas and sump with foam - my thinking is that if there is seawater aboard, I wanna know about it, and get it overboard. Also, less space for seawater means more space for floaty foam.

Same for under-bunk/locker areas; basically, wherever there is a V formed against the hull, I'll put a foam floor in to make the bottom level at least partly.

Also, I have been playing with 3" thick piece of test foam directly against the hull, seeing how much *usable* area I lose with that thickness. It ain't much. If I can go with 3" thick from the stringer down, all the way through the boat, that will give me 48cu/ft of the the estimated 55-60cu/ft needed to float the boat if she gets holed.

[AdriftAtSea]

CapnK-

While the idea of positive floatation is a good one...just make sure that the foam isn't going to be part of the problem in the case of a holing.  If you can't get the foam out of the way and get to where the actual hole is, then patching it or sealing it, even temporarily, is going to be a problem. 

[Dougcan]

uhmmm,  Can I point out one small thing?

The thing about foam is that they float as you correctly surmised.

However, where you have them located may be less than ideal.

Of course if your intention is to have the boat float upside down, well then I'll leave it at that.

But I would suggest you locate the foams as high on the boat as possible, not on the bottom of the boat.  This way it would do you more good, contribute to positive stability and in general keep the boat more or less upright.

[s/v Faith]

The thing about foam is that they float as you correctly surmised.

However, where you have them located may be less than ideal.

Of course if your intention is to have the boat float upside down, well then I'll leave it at that.

  I don't think this is really an issue... There is still over #2500 lower then all but the very bottom of the foam in the bilge.  She might be a little less stable, but with a D/L that is in the range of 'a very heavy displacement cruiser' I think she will be ok.

:)

[CapnK]

More explanation - I've tried to think of most everything, so I appreciate this back and forth. :):

Most likely, due to the surface areas covered, a hole poked in the hull will be inside of one or even several of the lockers. In that case, it/they will be able to be dogged down until an outside repair/plugging can be effected. If the leak is constrained to that area, unless there were vital supplies in there, it could be left alone until port was made. If the hole is above the stringer, then changing tacks will raise it from the water and make it more accessible for repair.

I spoke with James Baldwin about damage to the hull of his Triton "Atom" when he struck a large tree, and again later a motionless fishing boat while he sailed along at near hull speed. He said he was very impressed by the strength of the hull, by how little damage actually occurred. The Ariel has, in essence, the same hull. If something penetrates that, it will still have to poke through 3" of foam and another skin of glass to make it all the way to the interior. I'll have plenty of substrate to attach a quick patch to, also. I think it'll be alright. It just needs to buy me the time needed to get some kind fo fix on it, just well enough to make port somewhere, working on it on the way there if need be.

------------

Just because there is foam inside won't make her any less stable or more tippy than if she had wood, stone, or lead inside, instead of foam (if it is the same amount of weight of whatever material, it wouldn't matter). Though I am replacing wood from inside with foam, and that foam *is* lighter, she'll be loaded for cruising, so any inadvertent overall lightening of the boat will be a wash anyway, I think.

AFA her remaining upside down, you have to sort of keep the above in mind; until she is pretty much full of water, the interior foam will have no affect, even if she is rolling over and over (Heavens forbid... ;) ). The foam and lockers won't be able to have an effect on her flotation until she floods.

The ballast in an Ariel is 2,300# of lead. Poke that up into the air any appreciable distance, and it is gonna want to fall over, rotating around the fore/aft axis of the CG. This boat has an 8' (max) beam, 25' of length, and her ends are drawn in nicely - so she's not a stable shape upside down. I think the only way you could get the boat to remain upside down would be to catastrophically and thoroughly flood it at the exact moment it was perfectly upside down. (Heavens forbid *that*, too! :D ) Then you'd have to hold it pretty still, I bet. ;D At any rate, I will take steps to keep that from being able to happen - storm shutters on the deadlights, bluewater-worthy forehatch, etc... - so I think the odds of it are pretty low. If it happens, well, it must just be my time to go Home, and there isn't much I can do about that. ;)

It is more with a 'common' sinking scenario in mind that I'm designing this 'system': she gets holed to the point that water starts flooding the hull. Filling from below/near the waterline, she'll settle as she takes on water. Any water which does get into the open interior (ie; past a sealed locker) will be constrained to the narrow 'well' in the middle of the cabin, which will keep it from being able to slosh across the entire boat, making her rolly. The 'well' is 3'+ deep, I will have an accurate idea of how much water volume that is soon, but just looking I would say it is +/- 200 gallons. I will also be able to put at least one baffle into place in the well to help restrict fore and aft water movement. She will be able to take less water on that a similar boat, and, until there is quite a lot of water, it will be able to be controlled to a large degree.

If the foam were placed higher, say just under the deck, then the deck would be awash when she stopped sinking, making it nearly impossible, if not plain impossible, to bail her out at sea. I am trying to make it to where she will float with a slight freeboard, probably about 10-12". If conditions are just hellacious when she gets to that point, I'll just have to hang on until conditions get better, then start drying her out. (Man, that would be ***scary***!)

Since I will have little area for water to be inside the boat without it becoming very obvious, I will be able to be proactive towards getting it out as soon as it starts to come in - ie; no "Oh Sheet - the floorboards are floating!!!' moments. By then, it might already be too late.

Last will be a macking big manual bilge pump - a Whale Gusher 10 (17gpm @ 70 strokes/minute), minimum, though I'll give a hard look at the 30 (31gpm @ 70, 2 chambers) if I hit the lotto between now and when I put it in... ;D

[CapnK]

Speaking of holes - have any of y'all ever seen the idea for what is basically an umbrella to patch a hole with? You stick it through the hole into the water outside the boat, open it, and let water pressure push it back against the hole, sealing it off. Can't recall where I have seen/read that, if it was real or just an idea somewhere... Might even be from a scifi novel, since it would work the same in space... ;D

[s/v Faith]

Tristan jones, and (i think) in Hal Roth's ??? books.  I know for sure it was in Tristan Jones 'One hand for yourself, one hand for your ship'.

I think you would want the handle out in space though...  ;D

[Dougcan]

I'll buy that, but for some strange reason, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of filling all the bilge and sump areas with foam.

Part of that I guess is the memories of removing rotten waterlogged foams from other boats and part of it is having water everywhere except the bilge where it will be much harder to pump/bail out.

Proper checking of the bilge is part of good seamanship anyway and should be done at least daily while underway.  Beside which, if I do have a leak, I want the water in a deep bilge and not on the sole where it can do more damage to the various wood bits up there.

If you do get holed, well it should be pretty obvious to you that you hit something and you should check it out anyway instead of letting it "catch you by surprise"!  If you cannot tell that you have hit something while sailing at "full speed", you shouldn't be sailing or even be out on the water in the first place except as a guest of a competence sailor.  (Somehow I don't think this apply to you!)

As to being able to tell if you hit something or not, it can be pretty hard to tell sometime when in rough seas and the waves slapping on your hull tend to sound/feel like something hit your boat, but in time you'll be able to tell the difference.  It help to listen to the boat.

I guess it's because I've dealt with so many "DPOs" "work/repair/modifications/upgrades" that I tend to take the viewpoint of "keeping it simple".

If it was me, I would just forget the whole idea of using foam as you proposed, instead I would address your concerns.

One, I would have collapsed heavy gauge bags on the overhead of the V-berth, lockers et al connected to a manually operated medium sized tank of compressed air or CO2 thats easily reachable from the cockpit area to keep the boat afloat in case of a potential sinking. test it once to make sure it work and the tank is big enough to fill them all, then use a vacuum cleaner to re-collapse the bag ("repacking") and refill the tank.  Use this in combination with "watertight" lockers and bulkheads.

Two, I would use "removable foam panels" to cover the areas that need insulating to keep the boat comfy and prevent/reduce dew condensation on the hull.

If you do get holed, those "umbrella" plugs you referred to may work if there is enough loose 'fabric" on the edges to cling to the hull.  The thing about using "plugs" and "hull cloth" (typically sails, a good reason for keeping that old sail on board) is that they don't really stop the leak, but rather they slow the leak down enough so the pump(s)/bailer can easily keep up with water removal and give you a breather and time to deal with all the other things that's happening at the same time.  "Holing" your hull is actually a pretty rare occurrence though.  Yes it does happen, but not as often as one might think.

BTW, If you do get/use those "umbrella" plugs, make sure the handle part is strong and has a hook or eye on it so you can tie it off to something inside, water pressure is not going to be enough to hold it in place.

Your best bet is to have a properly equipped life boat and a grab bag to put in it for when the worst happen. (Another whole subject.) Because if your boat does somehow get filled with water, even if it's still on the surface of the water, it's gonna be miserable, thus the need for the life raft/boat (a good reason to choose your dinghy carefully).

Bottom line, considering the displacement of your boat, the foam is not going to help as much as you might think and will just make it worst later on.

It sounds like a good idea on paper, but in reality, it's not IMHO.

[AdriftAtSea]

The other problem with having the foam up high is that it would be shifting the CG upwards, which will affect capsize stability, and that is probably more detrimental than having it down low, where it won't come in to play until the cabin sole is awash.  Also, didn't realize you were glassing over the foam in place, as it sounds from your description.  That basically makes each of the foam areas a crash bulkhead of a sort.  With the foam down low, it will be much more likely that the boat will be sailable in the case of a hull puncture. 

My only question is whether you will have sufficient buoyancy to prevent the keel from sinking you.  Seawater weighs roughly 64 lbs. per cubic foot.  You have to compensate for 2300 lbs. of keel... which means you need about 36 cubic feet of foam.