sailFar.net

Bilge pumps

After a good storm on the Chesapeake last week, I was reminded of the value of a good bilge pumping system. 

Of course we know there is no better bilge pump then a scared Sailor with a bucket, but I am not a huge fan of that system since it is tough to sail and bail at the same time.

The boat I was on had a small (500 GPH) electric pump in the bilge, and a manual pump mounted where it could be operated from the cockpit.  The leak was not a big one, but when I discovered it the floor boards were floating, so there was a fair amount of water to get rid of.

Issue 1). Electronic switches.
The electric pump's automatic switch was one of the fancy 'solid state' ones.  It of course failed.  It was the second failure of one of these 'foolproof' solid state switches I have personally delt with in the last month.  The first was on an Alberg 30 I have been keeping an eye on.  For my boat there will be nothing but good old mercury float switches.

Issue 2). Redundant redundancy.
The smallish electronic bilge pump was not able to remove the water fast enough for my liking.  I have a similar sized pump on my boat, and it works fine for normal underway splashes that wind up in the bilge, but it was out of it's league.  Even if it were larger, the manual switch had taken it out of the running.  It also eventually clogged while clearing the bilge (you just have to turn it off, and the backflow of water mostly clears it).  The manual bilge pump, a Bosworth Guzzler, (400 I think) had nearly cleared the bilge when the flapper valve either failed or was jammed with debris.  The 'thirsty mate' slide type pump then had to be used to finish clearing the bilge.

The Guzzler is a good pump, but like anything else it can (and will) fail when you need it.

I was glad that the thirsty mate pump worked, since it would be hard to get a bucket into the narrow bilge access.

The plan for my boat was to be set up like this one had been.  I have now decided add another pump (triple redundancy, quadruple if you count the thirsty mate pump).  I will keep my < 500 GPH pump at the lowest point of my bilge.  I will also add a >1000 GPH pump at a higher place in the bilge to take over if the first pump becomes clogged, overwhelmed or fails.  I have already purchased a 'plastimo 925' manual pump that I will mount in the cockpit.

If you have an inboard, you might look at using the cooling pump as an extra means of removing water.  Consider this carefully though, as running your motor dry, or sucking debris into the cooling system might complicate your situation.

Issue 3).  Bilge hygiene.
Both of the pump failures I experienced were the result of trash in the bilge.  I hose my bilge out regularly on 'Faith' but it is easier to keep clean since it is well glassed and accessible.   

Issue 4).  Awareness. 
Of course this would not have been as pressing a problem if I had known earlier that the bilge was filling.  This boat had a high bilge water alarm, but it failed.   I plan to wire an extra float switch to the 'test' button of a smoke detector, to notify me if the water rises.  The smoke alarm will still function, so it will do double duty.  It should also be loud enough that if it went on while the boat was at the dock and I was not present, someone might hear it and know something was wrong.

It would also work to keep the bilge access open if you are in bad wx, but that might present a hazard to crew going below. 



  I know this is a long post, but floating floor boards are enough to ruin your whole day.  My First mate did great through the storm, the waves and wind did not seem to phase her, even the lightning did not bother her all that much.  Looking below and seeing all that water was a bit much, and I will admit it is something I would rather not repeat myself.  Maybe this will remind someone to re-visit your dewatering system.

For bilge pump switches, I prefer the design my friend came up with... it is a thin rod with a big foam float on the bottom in a thin PVC pipe.  At the top of the pipe is a switch, which is activated when the big float rises and pushes the rod up—which pushes the switch.   This way, the electronics of the switch are far above the water.

Most people vastly overestimate how effective a bilge pump will be.   Most pumps are rated in gallons per hour.  If you consider that even a relatively small hole can let in a gallon a second, then you have to realize a pump that is rated for 400 GPH is hopelessly outclassed.  This is even more important on smaller boats, which generally have less freeboard, and are effected more readily by water coming aboard—fifty gallons may not mean much to a 100' boat, but on a 20' boat, we have a serious problem.  Having several good bilge pumps, including a very effective, high-capacity manual pump that is located in the cockpit makes a lot of sense.

s/v Faith's idea of having a very high capacity pump in case the level rises above what the lower capacity, primary bilge pumps can handle is also an excellent idea.  The use of the engine's cooling system is another good alternative, but has some serious risks that must be considered.

Keeping the bilge clean of the debris and junk that can clog a bilge pump is also essential.  The labels on canned foods are often a source of much of the gunk that clogs a bilge pump.

The idea of a bilge high-water alarm and using a carbon monoxide or smoke alarm test button as a backup is also good.  One other thing I recommend is a bilge pump cycle counter... that can tell you if a leak is chronic, and whether it is increasing or decreasing in rate.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 14, 2006, 04:35:00 PM

Most people vastly overestimate how effective a bilge pump will be.   Most pumps are rated in gallons per hour.  If you consider that even a relatively small hole can let in a gallon a second, then you have to realize a pump that is rated for 400 GPH is hopelessly outclassed.

Just to put a number on this, for those playing at home, 1 gallon per second = 3600 gallons per hour.  "Hopelessly outclassed" is an understatement.

Quote from: svFaith

wire an extra float switch to the 'test' button of a smoke detector, to notify me if the water rises.  The smoke alarm will still function, so it will do double duty.

Excellent Idea.  I love it.  I loathe single-use equipment (with few exceptions), and anything that can be made multi-use has multiplied its value exponentially.  One might also consider the use of a propane or LPG alarm if the boat is so equipped.

Great Post, Craig.  Don't sweat the length - it was information dense!  :)

Good Post Craig.  That is the one thing that worries me on a regular basis.  I have the bilge pump with the float switch and a high water bilge alarm.  The alarm is not very loud and is barely audible, especially if the engine is running.  I have had to replace the float switch x2 in the last 3 yrs.  I also have a manual in the cockpit and it is the Guzzler 400, however, just in testing it out and using it every so often to make sure it still works and is not clogged, I realized how tiring it gets pumping it.  It does not take long for the arms to say, OK, I am done having fun.  :P  I have often thought about how difficult it would be if you had to keep doing that as your only resort.  My bilge area is small, so I am not even sure placing a second pump in there would be an option.   Compac also placed the Auto/Manual switch at the galley right below the sink.  This makes it a prime target for bumping against and turning it off.  I am constantly double checking that.  Definitely good info Craig!  Thanks for taking the time to post.

Here is a link to a good article.  Never mind the title of the magazine that sponsored it (stinkpot-reports), this article;

20 Electric Bilge Pumps Tested in 'Power  boat-reports.com' (http://www.stinkpot-reports.com/sample/bilge.html)

has some good information.

It asked;

QuoteThere are three basic questions about 12-volt bilge pumps:

• Do they move as much water as the manufacturers claim?
• Which one moves the greatest volume of water in a given period of time?
• Which one moves the most water for the electrical power used?

  It also had this quote;

QuoteLike manual bilge pumps, electric pumps will not save a holed boat. A 1" hole 5' below the waterline will admit 44 gallons of water a minute. The biggest pump (the Rule 3700) will just about stem that tide—until the battery runs out. Running the engine to charge the batteries may be critical.

However, any of these pumps may give you time to find and fix the problem.

Quote from: Pixie Dust on June 15, 2006, 10:22:18 PM
GCompac also placed the Auto/Manual switch at the galley right below the sink.  This makes it a prime target for bumping against and turning it off.  I am constantly double checking that. 

Connie-

Might want to see about putting a cage over the switch, so that you can't bump it accidentally.  Also, might want to use the elevated float switch design I mentioned above.  If you have questions about it...let me know. 

BTW, a small bilge shouldn't be a deterrent to installing a second bilge pump.  In fact, the smaller the bilge, the greater the need for it IMHO.

If you want some specific advice, drop me a note, and I'll see what I can come up with for ya.  :D

Dan

Here is another article on bilge pumps;

  David Pascoe's write up in yachtsurvey.com (http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm)

  He takes a systematic aproach to clearing the bilge, and as a surveyor has seen many of the issues / problems that people (or builders) cause when they install pumps.

  Ok, I will stop posting articles on this subject now (I am sure that there are dozens of others out there floating around on the web).

  Like I posted above this issue has been more on my mind as of late, ever since that day on the Chesapeake.

QuoteHaving spent many years investigating why they sank, I think I have a pretty good idea why. Its the casual attitude of both boat builders and boat owners toward bilge pumps.

Sail boaters are the absolute worst in this regard. For some strange reason, many of them just don't think that bilge pumps are important. Somehow they rationalize the idea that nothing is ever going to cause their hulls to suddenly flood, so a minimal pumping system is all that is really needed. As in just one pump. I never ceased to be amazed at the number of sailors who argue with me that one pump is enough. After all, the builder built it that way, and they have that nifty manual pump back there in the cockpit and that can really pump a lot of water. More about that later. FYI: Proportionately more sailboats flounder at sea even though powerboats outnumber them 8:1.....So why the widespread lack of concern? Well, its the same old problem of lack of experience; its not until they have a problem that they become convinced of the seriousness of it. Its mainly the people who've had their hulls flooded or even sunk that take the matter of bilge pumps seriously. Its called learning the hard way.

  Here is to not learning the hard way.   ;D

Part of the problem is that most sailboats have a large weight attached to them, which makes any holes in them all that more important to fix, and any water that comes in all that more important to get rid of.  Most powerboats don't have this problem.   

Also, most sailboats have a deeper draft than do most powerboats.  This causes two problems: 1) they have more things they can hit...2) when the do hit something, the hole is often deeper in the water, and has more pressure pushing water into the boat.   

A good example of this is the speed transducer on a boat.  Take it out of a stinkpot or a multihull, and replace it with a dummy plug and see how high the water sprays.  Do the same on a deep draft full keel boat and see what happens. 

The deeper the hole, the faster the water comes in.  The bigger the hole, the faster the water comes in.  Sailboats have the worst of boat often.

BTW, boats don't flounder...they founder... :D  flounder is a big fish... founder is to sink.

This thread has offered some great advice and info!

Dan, the cage over the switch on the galley sink is a great idea. It would sure look better than duct tape.  ;)
I have been thinking about puttting in a secondary bilge pump and trying to figure out a good location, size, float switch location etc.  I think I can make some modifications and get another one in there.  I very well might seek some advice from the panel of experts we have here!  ;)

Craig, Dave Pascoe's write up was very informative.  Site has been saved for future reference.

Another thought on bilge pumps:

I was reading this article on Ocean Navigator dot com (http://www.oceannavigator.com/articles/9720/2) and noticed the author's comments about where the pump intakes are located possibly being a problem when heeling in a high winds.

Something to think about.

(Incidentally, I pump from the athwartships center, at the lowest part of the bilge...I see his point while heeling).

When calculating desired Bilge Pump capacity, it might be wise to consider how quickly in-flooding water could sink your boat.  Remember, a given volume of water will sink a smaller boat more quickly than it would a larger vessel.

Approximate Flooding Rates, for smooth holes at selected depths, are calculated using the formula:

Flooding Rate in gpm ('Q') = 20 x d x square-root of h

where:
d = diameter of hole in inches
h = depth of hole underwater in feet (head)

Hence, for a 2" dia hole at 3 Ft depth:
Q = 20 x 2" x root 3 = 20 x 2 x 1.73 = 69.2 gpm (4,152 Gal per Hour)
then
69.2 / 60 = 1.15 gal per second, or 2.3 gal in two seconds

The actual flow rate ('Q') will be slightly less than calculated above, due to frictional & turbulence losses at the aperture.

Could your Bilge Pump(s) handle over 4,000 GPH of in-flooding, if a thru-hull lets go? How long will your batteries keep up* with the demand?
* Battery capacity (Amp/Hours) and height above internal waterline.

As posted at:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4016

The system I like consits of two electric pumps and a couple of manual backups.  Pump number one is a small nuisance water pump located in the bottom of the bilge on a float switch for nuisance water.  Pump number two is a 4000+ GPH pump located slightly above the nuisance  water pump n a manual switch.  This pump is for use in a emergency where a lot of water is entering the boat, like a failed through hull, etc.  I also have a Lavac head which uses a Henderson manual pump which can be rerouted as a bilge pump and a second, backup Henderson which can be used in the cockpit to supplement or replace the the electrical pumps.  This system is based on a suggestion in Don Casey's book, Good Old Boat.

The other question is where are your batteries located?  If they're fairly low in the boat, as they usually are, then the chance of the boat flooding past the height of the batteries is very likely, in which case your electric bilge pumps are gonna be toast.

The fastest electric bilge pump without a battery is a paperweight.

Been there , done that. Had a bilge pump through hull go underwater and back siphon the pump. Flooded the bilge- three times before we figured out what was happening. Had to dump the battery cause it got saltwater in it and was outgassing chlorine gas :o

Now the battery is installed higher. Plus there is a Whale Gusher 10 mounted so it can be operated from the cockpit without opening any hatches. That thing will move a large amount of water- out put is a 1 1/2 inch hose.

There is also a small electric monted in the bilge with a switch- no float. It's for nuisance water, and since we have zero through hulls or other openings below waterline I really don't feel the need for a float switch.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 20, 2006, 06:04:41 PM
The fastest electric bilge pump without a battery is a paperweight.

That's why we all carry at least one manual pump AND a bucket, right.  Right?

Saw the sig on the cruisers forum that went somthing like "the fastest bilge pump is a scared sailor with a bucket."

Also, if you are dealing with a large inflow of water, isn't the FIRST course of action to try to stop the flow?

Busted thru-hull...well, that's what those pointy little wooden plugs we carry are for, right?
We can fother with a sail, clothing or for larger holes, stuff in a pfd or a cushion.

In short, STOP (or at least greatly slow) the flow, THEN pump the water out.  There's no way, as indicated numerous times in this thread, that any ordinary pump is going to gain on a large 'leak.'

Food for thought. 

Quote from: CharlieJ on July 20, 2006, 07:14:47 PM
we have zero through hulls or other openings below waterline

Our sink drain leads to a through hull just under the waterline.  It's got a valve on it that stays closed and truthfully I've never used that sink for anything but to hold some papertowels and small pieces of handy spare line, etc.  The 'faucet' does not even work.

But just out of curiosity, how do you drain your sink?  Does it drain, or do you always use a bucket or tub to dump manually.

What about the drain for your ice box?

Sorry, you've probably answered these questions 100 times here and elsewhere, I just don't remember reading these specifics.

The sink lifts out and we dump it overboard. Has no drain. It started life as a steam table tray, stainless steel. We carry a spare because it dawned on us one day that IF we dropped it ;D ;D

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1153448469.jpg)

The icebox also has no drain- we use a small hand pump and pump it every other day or as needed. Usually every other day works well.

Thanks.  :) :)

I did always think a hull without holes was better than one with 'em. ;D

Charlie,

  I can just picturethe confused looks on the face of your guests (Um, hey Charlie, uh... where is the drain?).   ;D

The sink also makes a nice bucket to bail with in a pinch... ;)

One more detail to add form personal experience. If the cause of the water's ingress is the stern gland packing letting go, then you are in for more trouble then large amounts of water gushing in form three inches behind the engine in a place that only an optimist would describe as merely innaccesible.

You see, the packing material is kind of fibrous...and the first thing that happens is that it utterly kills your electric bilge pump. The crud gets sucked in, clogs up the impeller and that is effectively that.
Having a clean and clear bilge is all well and good...but the stern gland letting go managed to pressuer wash the back of the engine (and the underside, and the little oil catcher pad that lived beneath it.)

All in all an educational experience.

I cannot tell you much about the manual bilge pump fitted in the cockpit. It was someone else's boat we were delivering and though we devotes a couple of very precious minutes to the search, we could not find the handle that made it work. My thought on that topic is that the emergency backup bilgepump should probably NOT require any kind of assembly at the point you need to use it!
A double action manual pump is also a good thing, not just because it moves twice the water for every stroke, but because it does it by having two seperate and discreet diaphrams...so if one fails you still have a "normal" pump.

In the end, a bucket and a small suckpump was what kept us afloat and going. A radio call to the coast guard asking them to ring the nearest boatyard with liftout facilities and get them standing by and ready for us was also good. We pretty much went straight up the hoistway and were out of the water and in a cradle with water pouring out. I still have no honest idea about what my solution to that particular problem would be if we were far from help. No way to draive a plug or patch into that form the inside, it would likely involve diving overboard with some sort of works-in-water duct tape or sealent and squirting it around the prop shaft so it gets sucked in  and then using more and more until it set. You do not get to fire up your engine again without a major haulout...but at least you don't sink. Could I do that with just a snorkel and offshore in semi-rough or rough weather? No idea, hoping never to have to find out.

As we stood watching the boat doing its colander act on the cradle (I had unhosed the through hulls so it could drain), just catching our breaths and not saying anything for a while, then Margaret said, "Okay, you've convinced me on spending the extra money for the dripless stern gland"



Alex.

Yet, one more reason I'm glad my boat uses a small outboard for auxiliarry power.  The whole idea of trying to seal a rotating shaft that passes through the hull makes  me nervous. ;)

Quotewhole idea of trying to seal a rotating shaft that passes through the hull makes  me nervous.

  Tough to avoid with an inboard......  ::)

Alex brings up a good point about issues with 'OPB' (other peoples boats).  You might address all of the issues discussed in this thread, but it does you no good when you step aboard some one else's boat.

  I usually bring my boat bag (1st mate calls it my 'Man purse') with emergency gear (handheld, gps, etc.) and I make a point of not making a point of it so on one is offended.  I am starting to wonder how I am going to fit a small gasoline trash pump into my 'little green bag'.....  ;D

Quote from: s/v Faith on June 14, 2006, 03:45:24 PM
If you have an inboard, you might look at using the cooling pump as an extra means of removing water.  Consider this carefully though, as running your motor dry, or sucking debris into the cooling system might complicate your situation.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 14, 2006, 04:35:00 PM
The use of the engine's cooling system is another good alternative, but has some serious risks that must be considered.

I think this is an urban legend without any real basis. Take a look at the exhaust and think about how little water is really being moved. The flow rate on engine cooling water pumps are really pretty low.

This site (http://www.jabscoshop.com/articles/about_bronze_engine_cooling_pumps/) cites a cooling water flow rate of about 15 gpm / 100 bhp for an indirectly (freshwater) cooled diesel (about 8 gpm or 480 gph for the 54 hp Yanmar 4JH4E in my boat). A Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=shaft+drive+trash+pump&btnG=%A0Search%A0) on shaft drive trash pump returned a bunch of options that include pumps with 2" to 3" inlets that will pass solids up to half the diameter of the inlet, run at 5(ish) hp from the main engine and push 200 to 400 gpm. They aren't terribly large or expensive ($150 to $400). With some creative valving such a pump would make one heck of a washdown pump as well. <grin>

I'm not saying that it is an ideal solution, but a possible backup, if your main bilge pump fails.  An engine driven pump that has some serious capacity, like the ones you've described, are a great idea, but very few sailors will ever get around to buying and installing one.  The engine is already there....nothing to install. 

One thing I've read about and haven't seen mentioned in this discussion - a 'sea locker', one place where all thru-hulls are located. This is basically a walled area that can flood up to (and above, in the case of heeling) the normal waterline, thereby containing any water which might come in through a broken or leaking thru-hull.

I guess it could be possible to build one in a manner where it also enclosed the engine area, for an inboard. Then if the packing gland gave way or even if the whole shaft fell out (!!! - but I have heard of that happening) the vessel would still only take on a limited amount of water.

Of course it won't help with a serious collision-induced holing unless the puncture fortuitously happens inside of the area it encloses ;), but it is another time-tested piece of strategery for dealing with hull-holes. :)

Good discussion.

Neal Petersen describes a holing in his book which happened while he was racing in the OSTAR. It was the result of a collision with a freighter. The leak was of a magnitude that he had to manually pump for something like 20 minutes of every hour, 24 hours a day, until he made it across the Atlantic (he was 1/3-1/2 way across when the collision happened). Obviously, he made it - and he claimed his upper body had never been as muscularly developed as when he came ashore :D, but ever after he has onboard a manual pump of huge capacity because he says he never wants to go through that again.

I don't blame him. :)

I think you are referring to a sea-chest as opposed to a "sea-locker." In commercial applications they are used to consolidate water intakes and reduce the drag associated with hull penetrations.

I have seen reference to them being used on small boats and extended above the waterline. Does the Amel Super Maramu do that? I'm not sure.

For bigger spaces you are essentially talking about watertight compartments. Ships are divided into a number of watertight compartments and then rated as 1, 2, or 3 compartment ships based on how many may be flooded while the ship still meets stability requirements.

If I recall correctly, the Titanic was the first 3-compartment ship and was declared unsinkable because no one conceived of a casualty that would open so much of the length of the ship to the sea. Oops.

If you're going to go the sea locker route, make sure that the locker really is completely water-tight.  Also, might want to make two of them, one for the packing gland, and one for the other throughhulls.  The chance of losing the prop or the packing gland is very different from that of losing a regular throughhull, and you probably would want to be able to close off whatever seacocks you can—if they're all in one compartment, and the propshaft/packing gland goes, you might not be able to access any of them.

>The chance of losing the prop or the packing gland is very different from that of losing a regular throughhull, <

Which is more likely to happen?

~OK

My guess would be the packing gland or prop shaft would be more at risk. 

If you properly maintain and inspect the through-hulls, prop shaft and packing gland, the through hulls are very unlikely to fail.  The hoses may fail, but if the seacocks are well maintained, that isn't all that much of an issue. 

However, if you wrap or snag something about the prop, there's a pretty good chance something will give...and if it moves or the packing gland is damaged, then water will come in via the prop shaft/packing gland. 

Also consider that the prop shaft and packing gland are not static fixed pieces, like a through hull is.  Movement leads to wear, and wear to leaks. 

Quote from: CapnK on October 05, 2006, 09:20:14 AM

Neal Petersen describes a holing in his book which happened while he was racing in the OSTAR. It was the result of a collision with a freighter. The leak was of a magnitude that he had to manually pump for something like 20 minutes of every hour, 24 hours a day, until he made it across the Atlantic (he was 1/3-1/2 way across when the collision happened).

I'd like to point out that as I mentioned in an earlier post, you REPAIR first.  IIRC, Neal did in this case, stuffing PFD's and whatnot into the hole to SLOW the rate of inflow.  Without doing that, he would not have stood a chance.  Even after stemming the flow of water, he STILL had to pump 20 minutes per hour.

Just Wow.

Care to say a few words about maintaining and adjusting the packing gland?

~OK

QuoteCare to say a few words about maintaining and adjusting the packing gland?

~OK

Avoid them...   


Sorry.   ;D

 

FWIW, the cooling pump as a bilge pump issue.......

  ... There is a Hunter 30, that I will be  watching for a friend of mine.  He is just leaving, and his boat is set up with a y-valve on the raw water intake so I decided to try an experiment tonight. 

  I placed the pick up hose in a 1gallon jug with fresh water, while the motor was running and flipped the diverter valve.  It took approx 45 seconds for the Yanmar (20GM2...?) to suck the gallon dry (and of course flushed the motor with fresh water at the same time).  This was at a high idle, maybe 1100 - 1200 RPM's.

  That puts it at around 80 GPH, which is pretty low, unless you compare it to a manual pump, or a man with a bucket. 

  Actually, as I understand it the avg small (390-500) gph pump looses somewhere between 25% and 50% of it's capacity when actually installed due to restrictions in the hose, and pumping against a head. 

  80 honest GPH sounds pretty good to me if I needed it, if I had an inboard I think I would make the simple modification needed to take advantage of this additional de-watering capacity.

Oh, and something I have seen that seemed like a great idea to me if you had an inboard.....

  THe coupler is often the only thing preventing the prop, and shaft from falling out of the boat and leaving a neat 1" or so hole.  TO safeguard against this, bolt a spare zinc onto the propshaft inside the boat, between the packing glad and the coupler.  THat way, worst case, if the coupler came loose the shaft would at least stay aboard.

Ahh - 'sea chest' is what I should have written. I stand corrected! :) Thanks, Auspicious! (Grog fer ya, mate! ;D)

The prgression of this thread escaped me, so I will try and cover a bit of ground here.

Firstly,  I am all about fitting a lovely pully driven high-flow pump onto the inboard (There is an outboard version of this as well...but only starts at 30hp and above in the Yamahas). Basically, when the poop hits the fan, turning on the motor gives you all sorts of benefits, you can run for help faster, use the combination of sails and motor to tilt the boat in such a way that you might lift the ingress point of the water above waterline long enough to plug it (thinking mainly of through hulls and waterline impact damage), and you even get to power your communication systems (while you can) without resorting to the housebank batteries so that you can call for help or advice.
Turning on the engine is a GOOD THING (tm).....Turning on the engine and using your raw water cooling pump as an auxilery bilge pump is a way of putting all of that at risk, for not very much return, and possibly creating a situation so that even if you get safely to port having fixed the rpoblem, you still need to spend $4-5K on an engine rebuild.

Thanks, but no thanks. I can move way more water with a bucket (and I say this with total certainty born of experience) without even breaking a sweat. Raw water cooling systems just do not move that much water volume and they are fragile and finicky.

However clean you kkep your bilges, however pristine the boat interior...I promise you that on that faitfull day, there will be nine kinds of poop floating around your ankles. Just take it as a given.

I like the dual action manual diaphram pumps as a back up. They move an amazing amount of water with not much effort.


Maintenance on stern glands is a tricky, you sort of have to live with the boat long enough to know it and hear what it wants. I know lots about how to replace packing, what kind to use, how to tighten down and monitor and what rate of drip is considered optimal to show that the internals are being lubricated and the shaft is not being over-gripped.... And yet I got caught out because I did not have a history with the boat and it just happened to choose me to go "pop" under. When I spoke to the owner later he told me three or four things that would have had me never taking the boat out without having replaced the packing (probably three months earlier)...but he had just kept tightening down the nut....which should not be something that neds to happen after  the first couple of weeks at most. If you need to tighten the nut to slow dripping and the packing has been in there for five years or more...it means you need to repack, not adjust). But the owner did not know that, had "fixed" the problem and handed me the boat. I checked the engine and shaft before we loaded everything aboard (thereby blocking most access to the area). It was behaving perfectly so I had no cause for concern....

On many design the coupler is indeed the only thing stopping the shaft form sliding back...but what usually happens before the shaft exits all the way is that the prop runs into and jams the rudder. Does't that just make you happier?
We were on board a H28 with an offset prop that had the coupler throw its bolts just after a full engine service (that is the time it is going to happen.) and the shaft pulled all the way back to the rubber coupler....fortunately the bolts that got thrown were the ones at the gearbox end and not the shaft-clamp.

Attaching a zinc along the shaft may be a good solution, but many boats in our size range have the shaft sitting so close to the floor and in such a narrow space (usually with such a short shaft length bwteeen gearbox and sterngland) that this is not practical) At this point, positioning a zinc where it actually does the most good just in fornt of your cutless bearing (and making sure the cutless strut is strong and good) will achieve the same result of stopping the shaft from exiting all the way while putting the zinc to the use it was intended.

As a method of caring for and watching out for stern glands....I would nowadays describe them as very old tech and a generally bad idea and replace them with the now very reasonably proced dripless stern glands.
these are a very nifty thing and last for many decades without need of replacement or adjustment anything (In boats with our range of horse power. At 60 hp and up, there start being cooling issues to watch out for). Dripless systems work by having two specially made ceramic surfaces acting as bearings and water excluders, rather then pressuring kevlar, teflon or tarry rope against the spinning stainless shaft (which also acts like a brake). The ceramic dripless system has far less friction, thus upping your engine's output, and it does not wear grooves into the prop shaft (like kevlar packing, and to a lesser extent teflon) will over time do.

Finally, on the topic of sea chests as a way of preventing sinking....On boats our size it seems a great way of losing a lot of space quickly and it makes all of the pumps work harder as they now have to lift the head of water higher to get in over the top of the seachest. I am not fond of the idea of encasing the engine as service for an inboard in a 26foot boat is already akin to nuerosurgery on a gerbil....Conducting neurosurgery on a gerbil that happens to be lying at the bottom of a bucket (with tubes, wires and hoses running in over the lip) would be more then impractical.

One system that I have seen on an ocean racing boat that had preciously had the poop beaten out of it in Bass Straight and had its propshaft take out its rudder post (tearing the rudder post sleave to shreds in the process) and thus letting in two huge streams of water (the solution for the rudder post going was ingenious, by the way). What they ended up with by the time I crewed was effectively a clip on watertight box around the stern gland and a second sterngland through the bottom lip of that clip on box (the bit that was glassed down to the hull). This worked on the premis that both were unlikely to fail at once and they had the engine well forwards for racing advanatge and so had a long span of prop shaft inside the boat. Apparently the box, when allowed to fill with water under some pressure would still only leak a very little bit and the skipper took comfort in that. He also had a 14ga stainless tub replacing the thin copper sheath with fibreglass wrapping that used to be the old rudder post shaft.

"Lose the boat again, or put an extra 9kg of "stuff" on board to keep it safe and strong? Easy choice for the man with the checkbook!"



Alex.

Thanks Alex!

Would you list some symptoms of a failing stern gland? I'm suspicious of mine and would like to know if I ned to replace it. Suggestions (brand names etc) for replacements would be welcomed too. How difficult is it to replace with a ceramic stern gland? Is it something an amateru can do or is it best left to a pro? Price range?

Thanks,
Oded Kishony

I'm just heading for bed, so I will get back to this one later. A stern gland in good condition shoudl ddrip one drop every 15-20 seconds when the motor is running (shaft turning) and effectively not at all when the shaft is still.

Repacking a stern gland is a joy on some boats and a fraught experience in human origami in others. Maintenance of that area was almost never on the designer's or builder's minds in the case of most small boats (and not a few large ones). Replacing the packing is done with a large spanner and a small hook. Rather then buying an $8 bit of twisted spring steel wire to extract the old packing material, I like to use a long shanked fishing hook (small size, but with a long shank) and to straighten out the hook bit somewhat, so that the barb does all the work of hooking out old dead packing rings.

Basically, the game is that you unscrew the big tension nut at the front of the stern gland, pull it as far forwards along the shaft as the situation allows and start fishing out the old packing material. This is also a good time to see if the shaft is at all worn or grooved in the area that undoing the nut has oncovered. Oh, by the way, in some models of stern gland, the packing lives inside the sleeve of the nut, and in others it lives in the gland itself, not sure what type you have, they are equal in terms of quality, just different.

Next, cut the lenght of packing material you have bought fomr your chadlery (and which is the right size and type) into three or four rings that just form washers around your prop shaft. Nice clean cuts are important. (some stern glands only have room for two rings of packing, not a huge fan of those). Insert the rings into the place theold ones got hooked out of in a way so that the cut ends do not overlap. So if the first ring you put in has the cut ends at the top, the second should have the cut ends on the bottom, and so on. Put a little white winch grease on the threads of the nut and tighten down. Do not over do it, as the boat will need to go back in the water in order to fine tune the nut's tightness so as to get the correct amount of drip (which shows that the innards are getting cooled and lubricated with water and that the shaft is not being bound too tight).

Dripless ceramic systems are around $350-500 australian...so figure half to two thirds that in the US. They can be fitted by an amatuer in most cases, but it depends on the boat. Some prop shafts need the rudder removed and seemingly half the back end of the boat disassembled, some just need two or three friends, some not-overly alcaholic libations and a full day.

A good way to save money if you lack full confidence to take the job on yourself is to take off the old stuff (disconnect and remove shaft, remove stern gland etc) and then call in the boat yard to come install the dripless system and reinstall the shaft (they can do the balance on it while they are at it). Cuts a little over half the cost off and leaves you with "professional" results (of course sometimes that means a proffessional orangutan weilding a pickaxe...but I presume you know the qaulity of your local boatyard).

Anyway, that's about it for the evening. Good night.


Alex.

> Repacking a stern gland is a joy<

Thanks Alex

:)

Okay, so I read about other people's bilge pump issues...decided to check mine out today.  To my shock and amazement I had about 12 inches of standing water in there (the boats out of the water).  Upon looking into the water issue I found that one of the drains from the cockpit came loose.  Seems I've been getting some rainwater in for awhile.  I've got to add this to a list to check on a more regular basis.  Also, I don't have a bilge alarm...might have to look into this.

Update;

  Since starting this thread, I ended up going with a little different set up.

  First is an Atwood Sahara 750 GPH pump. It is mounted at the lowest point of the bilge with an internal float switch.  It handles the normal splashes that come into the bilge.  It draws 2.8a running under load, and with the >3' head pumps an honest 450 GPH.
(http://images.shipstore.com/ss/images/att/att45057.jpg)


  Second, I looked at a bunch of pumps for a larger capacity back up...  Ended up with a Rule 'Gold' 2000 GPH pump. (http://www.rule-industries.com/prodInfoApp/itt_jsp/DisplayItemDetail.jsp?itemId=09&companyId=RULE&catalogId=Marine&categoryId=BILGE&typeId=RNABP)  It was pricey, but I liked the way it was built.  It is mounted just aft of the Atwood, and slightly higher.  It is also pumping a head of >3' so I get something like 1500 GPH out of it.
(http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/productImages/large/09_l.jpg)

  These two pumps running together should go for something like 10 hours on my current battery.  I would more realistically expect something less then that but plan to double the capacity of the battery bank next spring.

  Then there is the Plastimo 925 manual pump (http://www.plastimousa.com/pumps.htm) that I will mount in the cockpit.  It is rated at 60 GPH, but I guess that has more to do with how fast I pump it.  It wants a 1" hose, which I am having some trouble finding in the crush resistant hose.... but I will work out something.

(http://www.plastimousa.com/images/pumps_39539.jpg)
_{Slightly different model, looks the same though}

  Then there are two of the Thirsty mate pumps (http://www.beckson.com/tmpumps.html) aboard. (one of the 18" and one of the 36")
(http://www.beckson.com/images/label.gif)

They don't take up much space, and are easy to grab and run to go help someone else out.

  Then there is always my 'Bacon & associates' 7l Rubber bucket. (http://baconsails.com/ships_store/product_info.php?cPath=438&products_id=24374)  (I love this thing, has a great handle, and slightly flexes..... wonderful bucket!)

(http://baconsails.com/ships_store/images/bucket.jpg)

I have a black bucket on Pixie exactly like Faith posted.  I bought it at a Horse Feed Store and I really like it! So much that I went back and bought a bright blue one too.  :)  I like its sturdiness and flexibility.

As for Adrift's question regarding gift receipt for my gift to Pixie Dust.  The policy is no refunds and no returns.  She is stuck with her gift whether she likes me or not.  :D I have bought the old girl LOTS of nice things during the last several months, including new bilge works and hoses.  Her owner is going broke trying to keep her in the lifestyle that she has been accustomed to and deserving of.  So much so that she is quitting her job to take her girl on high sea adventures.  She is one spoiled little boat, but her owner loves doting on her.   :D ;)

We also use one of the horse feed buckets aboard Tehani- but be warned.

After several weeks it WILL begin leaving black marks on your deck when you set it down. They aren't hard to scrub off and the bucket is good enough to live with the problem, but it WILL happen.

Had an experience with another boat today that made this thread very timely.  I posted them on the PearsonAriel.org forum (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion) Ebb brought up some realy good points on the  forum.  I quoted his posted coments;

Quote.....Good connections. Use Ancor adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors. Have another piece of shrink wrap on the wire and after the above has cooled shrink that one over it all.

One advantage of the 'shallow bilge' on #226 is that by placing both pumps under the sink, they are both in the deepest part of the bilge, and close enough to the electrical panel to run the leads directly off of the pumps and the switch for the Rule, to a dedicated terminal block. (outside the bilge)  I like to remove the cover off of a crimp connector, and crimp the bare terminal directly on to the wire. I then solder the crimped part of the connection, and heat shrink over the soldered end. This seals the end of the wire and the end of the crimp where the ends of the wires would normally be exposed is sealed with solder. I wired my old MG this way, and never had another electrical problem... no small feat for an MG   ;D

QuoteSet the system up for auto with manual overide. Wire bilge pumps directly to battery so that when you hit the battery selector switch when leaving the boat no matter what it says on the switch the boat is still protected.

I don't have a battery selector switch, but have the 750GPH pump on a selector switch where I can pump it manually or set it to automatic. (standard DPDT switch, with rule cover plate).

The 2000GPH pump is hardwired through the mercury switch. It does not share the same fuse as the other pump.

THe need for redundant wiring was made apparent just this afternoon. An Alberg 30 that is in my marina, that I watch of an out of town friend was noticed to be sitting low in the stern......

... she had had her floor boards floating once before when... the 'solid state' switch had failed. I had pumped her out and rigged a temporary spare float switch. When the owner came down, I recommended he consider a second pump, mounted higher then the other.

He mounted a rule 1500, on it's own float switch slightly higer then the smaller pump.

I was surprised today to look below and find the floor boards floating again... 

I checked the power, it was on. I checked the battery status, it was good..... I then reached for the power cable for the lower pump. When I pulled on it to raise the pump, the pump started to run. It turns out he had connected both pumps through the same power wire, and there was a bad connection through the terminal that connected it to the battery.



Fixing the connection brought both pumps to life.

QuoteCheck out Snake River Electronics' "Bilge Buddy Pump Control" that senses water level in bilge without floats and can be set so rapid pump cycling can't occur.

I do not believe that the rapid cycling is as much of a problem in practice on our boats as it may be where longer runs of hose are necessary.



The Rule switches, as I would expect most, are balanced so that they have a 'tipping point' where the water has to rise to a given height (say 2") before they turn on, but don't turn off until the water is below some much lower level (like 1/2 or 3/4"). I have read where some see the water that is contained in the hose flowing back into the bilge when the power is turned off and cycling the pump back on. The quart or two held in the hoses are not enough to come anywhere near raining the water high enough to 'tip' the floats back on.


As for solid state switches.... my experiences with electronics are that if it can fail, it will..... I have personally seen two of these 'better mouse traps' that have failed.

Quote......No manual pump can keep up with a 1" hole located two feet below the waterline. Nor can you depend on the largest electric Rule to keep up with a gusher like that! Have access to all parts of the hull. Carry a sailcloth hole-diaper as well.

Agree, have my tapered plugs, quick set underwater epoxy, and rubber tarp patch all where I can get at em...   ;)

Edit, Captain Smollett: Fixed Link Tag

Quote from: s/v Faith on December 27, 2006, 10:43:32 PM

I do not believe that the rapid cycling is as much of a problem in practice on our boats as it may be where longer runs of hose are necessary.

The quart or two held in the hoses are not enough to come anywhere near raining the water high enough to 'tip' the floats back on.

Just wondering if it would be worthwhile to install a simple check valve on the outflow side of the pump in those cases where back flow could be a problem.  Might such a plan also help in a seaway?  A simple check valve should not hurt the net flow rate too much, could be removed if it failed in the CLOSED position, etc.  Seems like a 'better' solution to me than some electronic gizmo to prevent such cycling.

Quote from: Captain SmollettJust wondering if it would be worthwhile to install a simple check valve on the outflow side of the pump in those cases where back flow could be a problem.

It would be an even more important thing to have if your bilge pump outflow line began to siphon the sea outside back into the boat. Say, fer instance, if it came apart from the pump fitting...

The bottom of the bilge (and the bottom of that pipe) are below sea level most times, so there is a very real possibility this could happen. If for no other reason, that is why I think a check valve on the bilge outflow line is a Good Thing. :)

I had a one way valve/backflow arrestoron my main electric bilge pump to stop backflow out of the pipe....I think it actually knocked about 25% of the bilge pump's capacity right off.

we did a test with a 20 litre bucket of water into the bilges and timing how long the pump took to get rid of the water and shut itself down. based on the results, I got rid of the valve.



Alex.

Actually, check valves do reduce the outflow quite a bit.  There have been some tests about the use of check valves for bilge pumps and most of the results are that it reduces the effective output too much to be useful.  Most electric bilge pumps are impeller-based and don't really work all that well if there is any back pressure in the output line.  Also, most bilge pumps are rated at O' head, and that is usually not the case in most installations, so the effective rated flow on the pumps is significantly lower than the "box" rating—adding a checkvalve makes this even worse.

Yep, and going for a diaphram pump only makes things worse because they ALWAYS go on strike right when you need them most (one fo the reasons diaphrams work for manual pumps is that they are huge and can cope with "lumps". Scaled down to the size of automated impellor type pumps they become very fragile.

One of the most bullet proof bilge pumps I have ever met was on an old couta boat (circa 1917). It used an arcemdes screw based pump made of bronze, could be driven by a small slectric motor (obviously an update) via a pulley, by the engine (which has a sort of horizontal pulley/flywheel coming out of the TOP, presumably like a PTO in order to run a powered capstan for hauling nets and such, but switching the belt over to the bilge pump was still a possibility. As a last resort there was a knob for hand cranking built into the top of the pumps pulley wheel. The bottom of the screw pump was in the deepest part of the bilge (pretty much directly under the engine) and the top of it was above waterline, so the water had active lift all the way and then ran downhill in its pipe to exit via the through hull.

Clunky? Oh most definately!...But I have sort of been thinking of it whistfully every time I have had to pull out some boat's Rule pump and replace it with yet another one that I know is going to be dead in a couple of years.


Alex.

Alex-

The only problem with a Archimedes-screw type pump is that you have to have a certain minimum rotation speed otherwise, the water won't be forced up it...

I still like big manual diaphragm pumps for bilge use.  They generally have more capacity, and greater ability to deal with rise than do the little electric bilge pumps...but they require a lot more muscle to operate. 

Of course, having a two-inch deep bilge on the Pretty Gee means that my bilge pump is actually a "navy" type piston pump... :D 

FWIW,

The issue I mentioned with the ports on the manual pump.....

QuoteIt wants a 1" hose, which I am having some trouble finding in the crush resistant hose.... but I will work out something.

  Found the answer at Lowes today.  Schedule 40 PVC barbed adapters, that take the 1" line to 1.25".  I would not go smaller, but have no problem going to a larger intake and discharge hose.  1.25" is pretty easy to find.   ;D

I still think a check valve is a good thing on an electric impeller pump, at least in my case.

A manual w/diaphragm serves as it's own check valve, but water can run backwards right past an impeller if siphoning starts up.

I regard electric pumps simply as a convenience, so the flow restriction is one of those trade-offs for peace of mind. Any real pumping out of appreciable amounts of water is going to be handled manually*. Besides which, if the boat is *really* flooded, there's a good chance that the electrics ain't-a gonna be working anyway...

Craigs post made me wonder if those who are more dependent on electrics could use an adapter to size-up the hose before it reaches the check valve, and thus use a larger check valve so that flow restriction was cancelled out by the increased volume of the larger size. Does that make sense? :)



*(unless of course I am not on the boat, in which case it is unlikely that the boat will be holed, or siphoning, since it won't be moving or at sea, and I won't have thru-hulls which could catastrophically fail, allowing large amounts of water into the boat.)

Just my 2 cents so i hope West Marine doesn't get mad at me.

1)Electric "Marine" bilge pumps are poop.

2)The best insurance against foundering are good pumps. Easily used.

3)Get the Best and Biggest Manual Diaphragm Pump that will fit.Give up beer for Lent and it will be paid for.

4)Get a engine driven crash pump if you can shoehorn it in AND/OR a "Real" water pump from an industrial supply house. I bought many of these when I had my machine shop and they would empty a 55 gallon drum in a minute or two depending on size. In fact they moved so much water you could "power" wash with them by reducing the fitting. Yes I know there not "Marine" rated. But they move water in a hurry and are heavy and well built. Industrial products dint suffer from the need for 300% mark up that "Marine" stores are looking for so your hard earned dollars go for pump and not advertisement in Sail magazine.

5)Those little Rule pumps are for nuisance water only. Don't rely on poop for an emergency please.


as an example here is a bronze (not plastic) self priming flexable impeller pump that will pump water and debris at 5 gallon a minute with a 10 foot head with a 1/2 hordepower motor.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5577792&PMT4NO=0



this one will get you about 20 to 25 gallon per minute (really) with the average bilge setup in a sailboat.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5577789&PMT4NO=0

Yesterday I found that I have a bilge pump, tho not hooked up to power and not even to an outside thru hull drain.  :o

Question
Would it be best to put a thru hull fitting in or use one of the 3 that I already have.? One is to drain the small anchor locker and the other two or cockpit drains.

Any thought would be appreciated.
David

Your bilge pump discharge needs to be above the waterline even when heeled.  Otherwise water can back-siphon through the pump and sink your boat.  This will most likely rule out tee-ing into your cockpit drains.

The problem with using an anchor locker drain is that it's way up in the bow, and generally the low point of the bilge is aft of midships.  That's a long hose run, all of which will drain back into the bilge every time the pump shuts off.  Your bilge will always have that much water in it...  Some people use a check valve in the discharge line just past the pump, but I think it's not the best idea because of the possibility of it clogging with bilge debris...

I'd recommend a bronze or nylon fitting on the transom if close to the pump, or in the topsides just below the rubrail.  Because it's up high you just need the overboard fitting, no valve required.  And the installation is easy, once you're comfortable with the idea of drilling holes in your boat...

... and when you tie your dinghy alongside, remember which side you put the bilge pump discharge on...  ;)

Thanks Bill,
I figured that the 3 would be out. The location of the bilge pump at the present is midship under one of the storage lockers. Access is easy any other location would be very hard to get at. I could mount the fitting just under the rub rail.

I'm not real comfortable about drilling holes in her. Drilled lots of holes in wool. I assume that I would use a standard 3/4" hole saw like I use for wood. Would I need to epoxy the inside hole edges then install the hull fitting or would just using something like 3M 5200 work?

Have a great week
David

If the section of hull you're cutting through is cored, then you'll want to ream out the core and fill the section between the two layers of glass with thickened epoxy.  If it is solid fiberglass, you can just use 3M 4000 to seal the fitting and hull from leaking. I wouldn't use 5200 since it is very strong adhesive, but more importantly, will attack many of the plastics that the through-hulls are made of. I'd also recommend going with a Marelon through-hull rather than a plain plastic one.

I don't recommend using a check valve in a bilge pump line, since it will greatly reduce the pump's output.

Thanks for the additional information. I have the feeling that it is cored. I guess I'll just wait until I have the bottom painted and have them install the fitting. Don't want to bite off more than I want to chew.

Grime-

I don't believe that is the case.  From what I've read, the starwind 22 had a solid fiberglass hull.  However, it did have a rather complete hull liner, which might complicate the installation a bit.

QuoteHowever, it did have a rather complete hull liner, which might complicate the installation a bit.

How would this complicate the installation? I know so little about sailboats and have found almost no information on the Starwind.

Do you have a lot of problems with water in the bilge?

I don't have an electric bilge pump, just a big manual bilge pump for emergencies.  If there is water in the bilge I sponge it out into a pail.  My boat is pretty dry, in fact the bilge is usually dry except when it is on the hard on its trailer. However if you get a lot of water on board, I can see the need for an electric bilge pump.

I would not drill another hole in the hull.  If you can find a way to use the anchor locker drain without the anchor locker draining into the bilge, that would be the way to go. 

A hull liner is a fiberglass molded piece that is attached to the interior of the hull, often used as method of stiffening the boat and will often have the furniture molded into it.... Galley counter, settees, etc.  However, if it is a fairly complete one, it will generally cover the entire interior, meaning that you have to drill through both it and the hull, and there may or may not be a gap between the two.  If there is a gap between the two, the liner either has to be cut away a bit, so that the through-hull can screw down onto just the hull or the gap has to be filled so that the airspace doesn't compress and compromise the throughull fit.

Quote from: Grime on March 03, 2008, 02:11:26 PM

QuoteHowever, it did have a rather complete hull liner, which might complicate the installation a bit.

How would this complicate the installation? I know so little about sailboats and have found almost no information on the Starwind.

I used to have an electric bilge pump, but I took out of the boat. After fixing the thru-hull rudder post, and re-bedding all the hardware on deck (twice!), the boat is dry as a bone, but I do have a manual bilge pump stored in a locker with long hoses for an emergency. I think Starwind bought the molds from Chrysler when it went belly up to build their boats, so they are probably very similar.

Edit: if your Starwind its the same as my Chysler 22, you probably have liner all over the hull, even under the cockpit, but not in the transom. The access to the transom can be tricky if you have flotation foam in the cockpit lockers like I do (this would be much easier to explain with a picture)

The requirement at the marina in Port Lavaca is to have a bilge pump working when in the slip so that the marina manger doesn't happen to have one sink on him. So only a manual pump would be out.  My truck is not big enough to haul out after each sail. My RV is but at the prices of gas and 5 miles to the gallon we would only get out about once a year.

The anchor locker has a through hull fitting to drain. I could use it and seal the hole that is there for the drain.  So far I have not seen any flotation foam.

The one area that the pump was sitting in there is easy access to the hull but it looks to low to put a through hull fitting. Down below one of the settee seats. I'll have to do some more checking to see if I can run it aft and exit somewhere just inside the cockpit area. Would be somewhat of a run for the pipe. Would have to follow the wiring route.

Would like to see one that has a working bilge pump. That would sure answer a lot of question and worries.

Think what I'll do is take pictures of everything, build a photo album and post the link for looks and thoughts. I'll have to wait until the 40+ MPH wind slows down some and I can pull the tarp off.

Thanks guys
David

David,

 

QuoteWould like to see one that has a working bilge pump. That would sure answer a lot of question and worries.

  I merged this into the 'Bilge Pumps, employment, care and feeding.' thread.  There is  lots of good info to think about, I would recommend backing up and reading the thread from page 1.  If you don't find what you are looking for, or if a picture would still be helpful let me know and I will take one for you... (kinda wonder what my bilge looks like about now anyways...)  :)

Faith

Quote
Would like to see one that has a working bilge pump. That would sure answer a lot of question and worries.

What I meant was that I would like to see another Starwind 22 and their setup. Some times typing I don't explain myself very well.


David

Anyone use a blige pump cycle counter? 

 

I've installed quite a few of them.  My preferred bilge pump setup is to have two electric bilge pumps and at least one big manual bilge pump.   

The first bilge pump is a "maintenance" pump and is very small with a small diameter hose.  It is mounted as low in the bilge as possible and meant to keep the boat dry of the typical day-to-day leaks, like the stuffing box, condensation, etc. This pump is on a bilge pump counter.  The reason for the small hose diameter is to limit the amount of water that back flushes when the pump shuts down.

The second bilge pump is as high a capacity pump as the boat owner is willing to buy. . It is mounted with its float switch an inch or two higher than the "maintenance" pump.  This pump is connected to a high water alarm as well.  This pump is intended to de-water the boat, and to keep the boat from actually sinking in the event of a major leak.

BTW, smaller boats require bigger bilge pumps than larger boats, since they have much less safety margin before sinking.  Most bilge pumps do not pump anywhere close to their nominal rated capacity, which is for zero head and no resistance from a hose.  Diaphragm-based bilge pumps generate far more pressure and can deal with large head heights better than impeller-based pumps. Most self-contained bilge pumps with an integrated float switch are impeller-based pumps.

The manual bilge pump should be as large as possible and mounted where it can be operated from the cockpit.  Ideally, you'd have two of them, with one operable from the cockpit and one operable from down below. :)

I have'nt done it yet but I'm going to install two Rule 800 bilge pumps with one on an automatic float switch.  The reson for two is easy,  port and starboard when the boat heels I'll still be able to discharge water.  What do you guys think?  good idea or not.  BTW i"m using PEX tubing that will be attached to the pums and going basically 4-5' out to the area below my rubfail midships to a thu hull 90.  It is still only 11 degrees here so I STILL can't get in the boat.  Iowa winter sucks.  Marc

Quote from: Marc on February 22, 2009, 10:08:45 AM
I have'nt done it yet but I'm going to install two Rule 800 bilge pumps with one on an automatic float switch.  The reson for two is easy,  port and starboard when the boat heels I'll still be able to discharge water.  What do you guys think?  good idea or not.  BTW i"m using PEX tubing that will be attached to the pums and going basically 4-5' out to the area below my rubfail midships to a thu hull 90.  It is still only 11 degrees here so I STILL can't get in the boat.  Iowa winter sucks.  Marc

  Sounds like a good plan.  Keep them on separate switches and route the wires individually and you have a back up, and pumps that work on both tacks... good idea.

A very interesting thread. shortly after purchasing my boat i went in search of the bilge pump. after searching the bilge and all lower parts I was at a loss as to where my pump was, so I went and bought a rule 2000gph pump + a rule float switch. A few days later i was rumaging through the starboard cockpit locker and found a bag ..... more of a sack really. curiosity getting the better of me i took a peek inside and what do i see. A rule 200 gph pump with a hose on it and about 5ft of electrical cable wired to the pump.  ???
       I have installed the 2000gph pump and float switch as low as possible in the bilge on the port side and I intend to mount a manual pump in the cockpit also. Another thing that has got me wondering at the common sense of the PO's is the six thru hulls all below the water line there is 2 for the cockpit drains (cant help that) there is an inlet and outlet for the head (both thru hulls and head will be removed) there is one for the sink drain (also to be removed) and one random thruhull in a port side locker that seems to have no conceivable purpose. The metal seacocks on the cockpit drains a seized, so i will replace them sooner rather then later. although I'm not sure whether to use metal or PVC for the replacements. all other thru hulls will be glassed over  :) .
      while I have installed the pump and switch I appear to have the same issue as Grime. My cabin liner is a royal pain in the behind I am still toying with a few ideas as to where the 1" thru hull will be fitted and where to route the hose so it will be safe from being interfered with . I will place the thruhull as close to the bump strip as i can.
       Another way to reduce flow of water into you boat is to CLOSE THE SLIDING HATCH. as i found out this weekend when i went out to work on my boat  and found a few inches of rain water in the bilge  >:( . Working time became cleanup time .

I also glassed over all openings below the water line in Tehani. There were 7 when I started.

I originally brought the deck drains out just above the water line, with plastic through hulls. This last haulout we replaced those with bronze through hulls and bromze valves. They aren't "seacocks" in the true sense of the word, but they aren't "gate valves" either- they are simply straight valves so the openings can be closed off. They operate exactly like a seacock does- half turn to close. Remember- these are above waterline.

My bilge pump through hull exits into the cockpit, directly over one of the cockpit drain holes. Since we have an outboard powered boat, there is never any oil in the bilge water, so no mess in the cockpit.

My manual pump, a Whale Gusher 10, exits into the outboard well, also above waterline.

Ok- some pictures I took today. This is my manual bilge pump setup and the one shot which shows the electric pump outlet in the cockpit, plus the deck drain valving I spoke of

First shot is the manual pump's cover in the cockpit.

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235441628.jpg)

Second is the cover open

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235441677.jpg)

and third is the pump itself mounted inside a cockpit locker.

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235441724.jpg)

next picture is the electric pump's thru hull in the cockpit.

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235441827.jpg)

and the final picture is the deck drain valving installed last haul out- it's pretty much alike on both sides, except the port side has an anchor rode locker drain tee-d into it

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235441951.jpg)

Where are your deck drains located Charlie that you can T your anchor rode locker to it?

Main anchor rode is in the bow. I added a secondary rode locker under the cockpit floor. We carry three hundred feet of line in there in two separate sections.

I also added a second 19 gallon water tank under there, UNDER the anchor rode storage- it was totally dead space.

This picture shows the first way we used i. We no longer stow the anchor there. Instead we have the second 100 foot line coiled in the center. I don't have any pictures showing current setup though. But this shows the space. The bladder tank is under that space.

So the drain is for your rear locker?

CharlieJ you a are genius, you have answered my question with out me having to ask it . I will follow you lead and fit my bilge thruhull the same as yours . Right above my cock pit drain ..... although my cockpit drains are thruhull fittings mounted into the cockpit floor . I will also endeavor to do some glass work and flush mount them along with moving the exit points to an above waterline place .

charlie do you get any water coming into your cockpit when heeling hard ?

Tim- yes, for the locker under the cockpit.

Matt- yes, we get a bit of back flow when heeling hard or when running hard off the wind. Not enough to bother with, but some. We also get some backwash when under power and have too much throttle- it starts to sink the stern into the quarter wave, which tells us we are wasting engine power ;D Because the boat AIN'T gonna move any faster..

But the new anchor locker has a raised section, which leaves a small well around the rudder head, and that's the only place where water goes, so feet don't get wet.

Tehani had really wimpy cockpit drains- couple of 5/8  hoses with a crimp in  each one. I took those out, built some new drains from 1 5/8 patterns ( I glassed 'em up), and installed out the engine well.

I had pictures all set, but it told me the "upload folder was full". I have to go out of town in a few minutes, so don't have time to fool with it this morning, but I'll post some cockpit drain pics later in the week.

that would be very much appreciated charlie. both my drains are 1 inch , I just dont like the way they are fitted to the cockpit.

Ok- here we go. Bear in mind that our boat has a engine well and long overhangs, so things will probably need to be changed for yours. But you can see the ideas anyway

I used some grey PVC electrical ells as molds. Wrapped plastic around them tightly as a release means and laid up a thin layer of glass on them. When that cured I slit the glass and popped the ells out, superglued the cut edge back together then laid up more glass until I had a 1/4 inch (roughly) layup.

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235573718.jpg)

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235573803.jpg)

Then I cut larger openings where the old drains were and glassed (heavily) the new ones in place-

Openings in rear corners of cockpit

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235573950.jpg)

Pipes running through engine well

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235573979.jpg)

Drains exiting hull, before glassing

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235574046.jpg)

Outside of hull with faired and filled drains- ready  for final sanding.

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235574275.jpg)

You can see the inside in one of the previous posts and the end result on the outside in  this picture of her on the trailer the day we launched. Oh, and you can also see the through hull for the deck drain- right at the water line. That was the old plastic one- it's now bronze

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1235574570.jpg)

GREAT JOB CHARLIE!!!  Really liked your idea of using the 1 1/4"  PVC 90's for your framework.  What I can't understand though is why did'nt you just use the PVC.  I, being an electrician plan on using alot of PVC on my boat.  You have given me an idea though.  My cockpit slopes forward and I was thinkinking of just going out the sides of the boat but I might just run them from fore to aft and dischage at the stern.  I really am taking your advice on building a bridge deck making my cockpit 2' smaller.  Just wating for the weather.  BTW what are you pulling your boat with?  Hopefully at least a 3/4 ton truck.  Marc

Because I don't trust PVC to glue and stay glued, when glassed over. Epoxy/glass lay-ups I trust.

We pulled with a 5.7 L Chevy Silverado. Drove from here to Rochester NY and  picked up the boat, and hauled it home. We don't tow it any more since we don't have a trailer. We just go over and have it hauled when working on the bottom.

Before you do your bridge deck, take a look at James Baldwin's Atom site. He added a bridge deck and uses it to store extra water containers- food for thought. James occasionally posts on here also-

http://www.atomvoyages.com/

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 25, 2009, 08:56:18 PM
.....Before you do your bridge deck, take a look at James Baldwin's Atom site. He added a bridge deck and uses it to store extra water containers- food for thought. James occasionally posts on here also-

http://www.atomvoyages.com/

Might also take a look at this thread; Bridge Deck Project Thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1114.0)

I've been thinking about Charlie's drains, mostly because my single 3/4" drain just ain't cuttin' it.  I've got a couple of questions...

1: Charlie, you said you didn't trust the fiberglass/PVC bond.  Is this based on experience (you've seen it fail), or inexperience (never tried it)?  I would like to add a couple of big honkin' cockpit drains and was thinking about trying to bond some PVC in; but now you've got me nervous.

2: It looks like you have a solid drain tube, cockpit to hull.  Is there any concern about stress with a solid pipe here?  I would love to do this myself, but I'm afraid the cockpit might move a little independently of the hull, and I feared the resultant stress.

3: I am planning on installing at least one new drain at the front of the cockpit, where water tends to accumulate.  If I where to build a custom drain like you have, is there any reason I shouldn't make a really big one, say three inches or more?  I figure that would really encourage drainage, and hopefully discourage blockage.  I figure there might be a chance of losing keys, tools, and small children down such a hole; but I'm sure I can come up with some sort of grate. 

Godot—

The problem I see with having a 3" cockpit drain that far forward is then you need to have a 3" hose and seacock and through-hull if it drains below the waterline, or a 3" hose and through-hull if it drains above.  3" hose is a PITA to work with. I think you'd be better off with two 1.5" or 2" drains instead. :)

Grates on drains aren't such a great idea, unless they're not flush with the deck.  If they're flat and flush to the cockpit side or sole, they can easily be blocked off by leaves.  If they project out from the surface a bit, they're much more difficult to block.  They use the same idea on gutters, to prevent leaves from blocking them.  The best ones are almost a cylinder of wire mesh that sticks up...so that they can act as a standpipe, when the debris blocks the lower sections of it.

That's why I was asking about a solid drain pipe.  To avoid playing with really big hose.  Outside of the hose issue, is there any other reason not to have really big drains?

At the forward end of the cockpit it is only practical to install a new drain on the port side due to the way the space under the cockpit is laid out.  I could install another drain at the aft port side of the cockpit, but that means adding another hole (above the waterline) in the transom.  I like the idea of fewer holes, even if they aren't below the waterline.

As to whether or not to put a grate on, well, we would see how things work out. 

One option I just thought of is to install my dream big honkin drain in the aft part of the cockpit where it only has to travel a foot or so to get to the transom (PVC would be great if it bonds adequately to the fiberglass and I am confident the stresses aren't an issue), and then install a smaller drain up forward to get rid of the water that likes to pool there.  I'm still thinking on it.

Quote from: Godot on March 09, 2009, 04:09:27 PM

1: Charlie, you said you didn't trust the fiberglass/PVC bond.  Is this based on experience (you've seen it fail), or inexperience (never tried it)?  I would like to add a couple of big honkin' cockpit drains and was thinking about trying to bond some PVC in; but now you've got me nervous.

The Gougeon's recommend "flame treating" PVC prior to gluing with epoxy. I didn't particularly like the idea. Besides, the way I did it perfectly fit the space.

Quote2: It looks like you have a solid drain tube, cockpit to hull.  Is there any concern about stress with a solid pipe here?  I would love to do this myself, but I'm afraid the cockpit might move a little independently of the hull, and I feared the resultant stress.

When I got done glassing, those tubes were over 1/4 inch thick, then epoxied and glassed to the cockpit, inside and out, and glassed to the hull, inside and out- They AIN'T moving, plus where they are, right in the corner of the cockpit, also nothing is moving.

The 3 inch drain has been covered already, but I agree- I think it would generate more difficulties than it would solve. A small drain forward and big ones aft sound best to me.

Charlie, have you ever considered compiling a list of all of the modifications you two have bestowed upon Tehani?  Accompanied, of course, by photographical evidence. (Hey, it's cold and snowing up here still!)
One quick question though.  What do you latch the cockpit anchor locker hatch down with?   It looks as though a gasketed hatch with that prominent of a coaming would do the trick.  I may seriously consider storage of the same nature there.  What, if anything don't you like about it?

Godot—

I'd have to agree with charlie, that you really would probably want a big drain in the aft section, and smaller drains forward to deal with the pooling.  That makes your installation simpler and gives you a way to drain the cockpit relatively quickly of the majority of the water if the boat gets pooped. :)

Quote from: Capt. Tony on March 09, 2009, 09:54:58 PM
Charlie, have you ever considered compiling a list of all of the modifications you two have bestowed upon Tehani?  Accompanied, of course, by photographical evidence. (Hey, it's cold and snowing up here still!)
One quick question though.  What do you latch the cockpit anchor locker hatch down with?   It looks as though a gasketed hatch with that prominent of a coaming would do the trick.  I may seriously consider storage of the same nature there.  What, if anything don't you like about it?

I've been asked that before, about all the mods. Thought about doing a webpage with them , but simply don't have the time. So I post relevant pics and details as things arise.  When the gallery comes back up, I'll add some there, I promise ;)


But a brief rundown-

gutted and rebuilt the entire fore cabin, with stowage lockers on each side, and drawers and lockers under the Vee-berth .

Added behind settee stowage and shelves on each side.

Built a table for the main cabin. It stores under the foredeck above the Vee berth in cleats built just for that.

Closed off foot of port side settee berth for under galley pot, pan and dish storage.

Cut out ice chest and sink and redid them in a slightly new location, so we could actually surround the ice chest with some foam- 3 1/2 to 4 inches. It'll now keep a 20 lb block of ice for at least 8 to 10 days

Lowered main cabin sole 1 1/2 inches- I now have FULL headroom in the main cabin. While doing that, added 12 new keel bolts because I could not inspect the old ones

Cut main companionway down from 32 inches square ( top opening I mean) to 24 inches and changed sloped drop board cut out to vertical, also 24 inches wide. The as built original companion was big enough to fly a durned helicopter through :D In addition, added a full blown, built in seahood.

Added a pull out chart table/counter top under starboard side of galley flat in some dead space I found.

Completely redid the companionway ladder, which originally had two steps, so now it has three.  Top step is teak one side and Formica the other - hinged and flips over to become extra counter space, right beside the sink.

Added a lift up lid as the second step, which gives access to a garbage can - one of Laura's delights since she can just lift the step and drop stuff into the can. It's bungeed in place- one of the square kitty litter buckets.

Added the under cockpit water tank- a flexible, which doubled our on board capacity to 38 gallons.

Added the under cockpit anchor rode storage over that and raised the center section of the cockpit sole 3 inches over all. Added the new drains in the rear of the cockpit.

Removed and glassed over ALL below water line through hulls. There were SEVEN openings when we started, including 4 that were just pipes glassed i place- no way to close them off all all. Two of those were for deck drains. Those now exit the hull above waterline.

Redid bow to accommodate an anchor roller. That required a re-do of the deck edges, moving the bow chocks aft a foot ( about) , reconfiguring the pulpit ( for the better)

Removed a fore deck cowl vent and glassed over the opening.

Replaced the single 6 inch bow cleat with two 10 inch Herreshoff style. ALL production boats I've ever seen have cleats that are too small.

Changed stern cleats- 5 inchers- to 8 inch Herreshoff type.

Moved upper and lower shroud chainplates to outside of hull, rather than through deck.

Completely ceiled the inside of the hull, using varnished ash, with 1/2 inch of foam insulation behind it

Probably more details that I  have forgotten, but I think those are the major changes.


On the cockpit hatch- it sits over a 2 inch coaming, with a gasket on it- it's pretty heavy also. We USED to insert bolts through the lid and coaming when going offshore, through the smaller hatch in the center. But it's NEVER moved a fraction and it's difficult to get out anyway- has to be lifted JUST right or it won't free up. Which is why the smaller center hatch- an aftermarket one that dogs closed. So we quit using the bolts. The anchor rode locker has a drain that tees into one of the deck drain lines, inboard of the ball valve ( above waterline remember)

What do we NOT like about it? It's hard to get open ;D And once open you have to put the lid somewhere while getting that anchor rode out. But that's really minor and again, that's why the hatch in the center- so we can get to the extra anchor rode more easily. We carry 300 feet of nylon in there in two separate rodes. The shorter ( 100 foot) rode is stowed coiled inside a section of 12 inch diameter PVC pipe sitting directly under the hatch. The 200 foot rode coils around that. The 100 footer is easily accessible by opening the small hatch. 25 feet of chain lives in there also.

We don't have pics of the newly installed hatch yet.

Emerald Tide has a similar system as Faith has.  There is a large 3500gph crash pump, a smaller 2000gph secondary and a third smaller pump as the primary.

The primary pump is actually a diaphragm pump, it has the advantages of being able to run dry in defiantly, to prime quickly and to be able to suck through a hose so the pickup can be attached to a strainer foot that actually vacuums the water down to within 1/4" of the bilge sump.

The prior owner designed and installed the system, another man who did some work on the boat added the third pump and upgraded the wiring to a dedicated buss.  The reason for this post was to share that if someone goes this route, it is imperative they purchase a pump capable of pumping oil.  No matter how clean your bilge, it is possible to get some trace of oil.  The diaphragm pump that was installed was actually a water pump (mechanically identical) which has an important difference.... The diaphragm is designed to resist chlorine, and not oil.

It failed and allowed the pump to run on.... If the boat were not attended it might have drained the battery.

Just some more fodder for the mill.  If anyone needs specific model numbers or info let me know.