Another windvane thread...weight related

[w00dy]

Hey Guys
I've got a line on a used windvane. It's a Windpilot Pacific Plus I.
Retails for $6500. Asking $1800. Unfortunately, it's very large. According to the Windpilot website, it weighs in at 100 lbs. I think this makes it too big/heavy to be hung off the stern of my 25' 5500lb boat. What do you think?

[LooseMoose]

The Windpilot is a great gear but certainly more than you need for a 25 foot boat... too much eight in the ends of a boat can really hamper performance.

One new vane that you might want to check out  is the new Y&B by Mr Vee (http://www.mistervee.com/?q=catalog/mister-vee-yb) that also has some really neat innovative features that look to put it ahead of a lot of the old standards. Plus it is as cheap as a lot of the used vanes floating around.

On the other hand, building your own is both easy and a lot cheaper...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[CharlieJ]

I agree totally- way too heavy. Would be too heavy to add to Tehani also. The engine back there is bad enough. Sure wish they made a 2 cylinder 4 stroke 5 HP ;D

[Oldrig]

James,

It's interesting that you should post this today.

Just yesterday I attended the annual winter meeting of the Northeast Fleet of the Cape Dory Sailboat Owner's Association. Pretty soon, the few owners of the Cape Dory 25D found ourselves gathered together, exchanging tips and notes.

One of the 25D owners reported that he mounted a Windpilot Pacific Light on his 25-footer -- and that she sails beautifully with this piece of equipment.

I haven't seen his boat, and I'm not able to afford a Windpilot right now, but I'm intrigued.

It seems like this could be the right sized windvane for your Aleutka.

BTW, since the Aleutka was the boat that John Letcher used for his experiments in sheet-to-tiller self-steering, have you done any experiments in that direction?

Best luck,

--Joe

[w00dy]

Many experiments, Joe. Many. I've been most successful going to windward and straight downwind. I've been moderately successful beam reaching, but have yet to get her to steer herself broad reaching. I'll continue to work on this, but so far, I haven't made it happen, hence the desire for a windvane.

I figure I can get the windvane to sail all points except straight downwind, at which point I can use twin headsails. I just have to find a windvane and install it.

I'd considered making a trim tab vane, but my rudder kicks up and wouldn't be compatible with that style. Letcher's book goes into great detail about designing a windvane for your boat, but I'm just not tooled up for a project of that scope yet.

[Oldrig]

James:

I've also tried, after reading Letcher's book while recuperating from surgery several years ago.

Like you, I could get it to work, more or less, upwind, and even almost on a broad reach--when I was sailing with a working jib. But once I got a genny, all bets were off.

Even though I still bring my collection of blocks, line and surgical tubing onboard, I usually resort to using my Raymarine ST-2000 autopilot--not so much as a self-steerer (too energy hungry), but as a tiller holder, once I get my sails balanced.

I've been dreaming of a windvane for years, and I got even more hooked on the idea when I sailed to Bermuda last year. The boat I crewed on had a Monitor, and it worked like a charm. But it's too big--and too expensive--for a 25-footer.

That's why I'm intrigued by the Windpilot Pacific Light.

Money, as always, is a problem.

--Joe

[w00dy]

When I bought my boat, it was advertised to come with a windvane. It ended up being "pieces of a windvane." I am the proud owner of 2/3 of an ATOMS. Although I might try and fabricate the remaining portion, I'd rather sell what I have as spares to someone with a complete ATOMS vane, and use the money toward a new one.

I'd love to hear recommendations of various gear.

[CharlieJ]

I really don't understand not being able to steer with sheet to tiller. We've had Tehani steering that way for several days at a time. Including a 3 day passage when the sheet to tiller gear did ALL the steering other than while we were crossing the roads offshore Galveston- then WE steered ;)

Here's a video Laura shot of us in the open gulf. Winds increased to where we were under a reefed main and reefed jib- never even touched the sheet to tiller adjustments for over 24 hours. We did have an occasional time where a wave would knock used off and we'd have to manually return to course, but then the surgical tubing took over again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhBRB1qkpk&feature=related

And here's one of Tehani in Mississippi Sound, sailing free- you can see the control being picked off the main sheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg&feature=related

I've never used it dead downwind so can speak for that, but from  close hauled out to a beam reach, it works great

[Captain Smollett]

Pretty much only two things can make a boat NOT self steer well with sheet-to-tiller gear (or really ANY system):

sail imbalance
hull imbalance/yaw resistance

Letcher devotes quote a bit of his book to yaw resistance and its importance to getting a boat to self steer, as well as how to measure it for a particular boat.  If yaw resistance is out of the range that "allows" self steering, Letcher further addresses how to correct.

What amazes me is how seldom THIS part is discussed - has anyone with troubles getting sheet to tiller gear to work MEASURED this hull metric to determine if there is a corrective action that is needed to properly 'balance' the hull?

If so and the boat's yaw resistance is not in the sweet spot, she likely won't self steer WELL with any set-up, whether windvane, sail feedback systems or electronic autopilot.  I believe that was Letcher's conclusion, not my own.

Once it is known that the hull itself is self steerable, all bets are still off if the sails are not balanced.

I don't know about the CD25D's, but the Aleutka SHOULD be able to be made to self steer - Letcher wrote an entire chapter of his book about it. One should be able to reproduce his results pretty closely, and if not, it might be instructive to ask the question "why won't she do it?" 

There is a reason, if you care to find it.

I agree with Charlie; though I've never used it for days at a time, I do know that Pat Henry, during her solo circumnavigation, used sheet to tiller gear to successfully sail part of the way after her wind vane broke and she had worn out her second or third electronic autopilot.  Her remark when she tried it was "I cannot believe how well this works, and it was so simple to do; wish I'd tried it long ago."

[Marc]

Charlie, in your video of self steering, it looks like you took a line from one side of the cockpit to the other, with surgical tubing on one end?  I would really like to try this setup whe it warms up.  I still am really confused though on how to get all this to work together.  I hope everyone is well out there.  Marc

[CharlieJ]

Yep- amber surgical tubing ( I should point out here- bungee cord does NOT work well) straight out of the books. Here's a link to a great write up, with pics , of exactly how our gear is made. (Not my website)

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

It's really fascinating to sit and watch the stuff work. VERY little movement in the whole system, as you can probably see in the videos, particularly the second one..

[w00dy]

I must admit that I need to get some more surgical tubing.... I used the portion I had to replace the old stuff on my Hawaiian sling and have substituted shock cord for it. Perhaps that and some careful attention to other details like friction will help out.

Even using shock cord, the boat has steered herself on all points other than broad reaching...That's been the tough one. I'm sure if I keep working on it, I'll get it, but I can't deny that I'm still attracted to the idea of a separate windvane, expensive they may be.

[Captain Smollett]

I must admit that I need to get some more surgical tubing.... I used the portion I had to replace the old stuff on my Hawaiian sling and have substituted shock cord for it. Perhaps that and some careful attention to other details like friction will help out.

Even using shock cord, the boat has steered herself on all points other than broad reaching...That's been the tough one. I'm sure if I keep working on it, I'll get it, but I can't deny that I'm still attracted to the idea of a separate windvane, expensive they may be.

I'm going by memory here since my copy of the book is not on the boat at the moment, but for the Aleutka, didn't Letcher have to use a force demultiplier (a kind of reverse tackle to give mechanical DISadvantage) to get to her steer broad off using the genny for input?  Have you tried that?

[CharlieJ]

The website I listed gives methods of doing just that-A power demultiplier.

The neat thing about about the gear for sheet to tiller is you can put it all in a grocery bag ;D ;D

I must mention- we also have a tiller pilot, which we use a good bit. IT steered us on our 29 hour sail crossing from Appalachicola to Anclote Key. So we do use more modern stuff part of the time :D

One thing about Tehani, and I'm sure an Ariel is the same- she's so easy on the helm the electric tiller pilot doesn't work very hard usually, so uses little power-usually.

[w00dy]

I haven't tried the reverse tackle yet but that's another good thought.

Here's another question:
In Letcher's book, in the part that is talking about broad reaching with sheet-to-tiller, he mentions sailing with main and genoa, with his genoa sheet led through the end of his boom/in place of the main sheet? Has anyone tried this arrangement? What exactly IS this arrangement?

[w00dy]

Ok. So my budget is around $2000. My options are (as I see them):

Norvane for my boat $1900. New with 5 year warranty, custom installation tubes. Lightweight appropriate for my small displacement boat and low aspect stern. Stainless steel mounting is strong, and stable. Easy to repair. Reputable company that will (hopefully) be around to purchase parts from.

Mr. Vee $1600. Brand new, Ultra lightweight materials and least expensive windvane. Parts made of carbon fiber and plastic gears are very light but potentially weaker than stainless. Harder to fabricate if broken. Mr. Vee seems legitimate, but I have doubts about the company's staying power.

Used Monitor by Scanmar. $2000 Lightly used and in like-new condition. No warranty but a time-tested product backed by a solid company. Good resale value. The boat that it is currently installed on is a double ender of similar size, though larger displacement (25' pilot cutter). At 50 lbs, the gear and brackets will be on the heavy side, but I think this is still within my weight range and will at the least be very sturdy.

[w00dy]

The devil's in the details. I can't fashion a trim-tab style windvane because of my kick-up rudder. So servo-pendulum it is.
But, I have no inboard engine; only an outboard mounted on an offset bracket. SO,



unless I mount the windvane off center (which doesn't seem like a good idea, even if it would work), the outboard and bracket have to go. There's just not enough room back there for a big windvane and all the tubing.



So, what do you think?
Is a windvane really worth getting rid of my motor? Or should I go for it and sail engineless?
This is going to take some heavy thought on my part. Luckily, I'm in no rush to decide.

[LooseMoose]

Trim tabs can work quite well with a kick up rudder... I've installed several Autohelm clone vane gears this way and the instrument activated (like bike cables) are able to kick up and go down without changing adjustment.

On the other hand if you go with a servo pendulum having it off center is not a problem at all as they work just as well off center as they do centered.

Keep an eye out for a used ATOMS as used they go for around $400...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[w00dy]

Hey Bob
I actually have an ATOMS, or half of one. One of the reasons that I bought my current boat was that it was advertised as including a self steering windvane, though uninstalled. Due to my own lack of foresight, I didn't realize it was missing the mounting bracket, rudder, and steering linkage until I had already made my offer and paid for the boat. Should've asked to see the windvane beforehand....

If I had one to copy from, perhaps I could fabricate the missing pieces. As it is, I only have a single internet picture to go from. Instead, I'm just looking for someone with an Atoms to buy mine for spares.

[LooseMoose]

I have an Atoms clone (home built copy) so just let me know what you are missing or send photos of what you have and I'll be happy to send you measurements etc to get you sorted out.

Feel free to contact me over at boat bits as I monitor that email daily...

Bob
at anchor in St Croix...


http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/