Hanks or Roller: Question for the Hank-On Crowd

[David_Old_Jersey]

The last small boat I had with Hank on Sails was a 21 Footer - pretty as a peach  ;D but barely sitting headroom, and that only near the companionway!



Corribee 21

Unsurpisingly storage onboard of 2 foresails was a challenge, with no sail locker my secret was to move them around - in port mostly lived down a 1/4 berth, when used both sails lived under the hatch in the forepeak (it was open plan - not big enuf for a forecabin!), until one (or both) were used. Also the unused sail made a good "bean bag"  8).

MO was to leave the sail of the day (either a jib or genoa) hanked on and tied to the rail, whether before leaving the dock or when anchored for lunch. For dropping (at end of the day or a sail change) it went "down the hole" (forehatch) to sort out later.

To be honest did not do too many sail changes! Me iz lazy, and whilst a sail change of hank ons is not a great problem (as a kid it was my job - probably nowadays under 10's at the bow, with no tether and no lifejacket is not considered good practice!) - doing so bouncing around on a very small foredeck is a PITA.....especially solo and with no autopilot (used to go around in circles a lot!).

[JWalker]

Call me lazy,

Not at all.  I hope my comments did not suggest that.

No no, I wasn't taking it that way, I was just saying that in a general direction to anyone who does not feel the way I do,
not specifically towards you Captn S.

I just feel like that for all the things I *could* do to make it so that I sail more without RF, *FOR ME*, I would just be trying to
imitate RF, so why not just get RF.   ;)

I've hanked on for a long time, But in a daily use situation I believe I would benefit from RF.

Everything on a small sailboat takes four times as long to do, be it cooking, dishes, getting out of bed, getting rid of the trash, putting clothes on, going to the head, finding your lost whatever it is....
thats part of the allure of sailing. But at the same time if I can easily save myself 10 or 20 minutes a day in sail handling,
Thats more time I have for any of the other demanded activities that *must* be done before the day can be called over, such as making sure the anchor is set, checking the weather again, watching the sun set, trying to lighten some ballast by consuming some rum, putting the mainsail cover on, doing a shore excursion, washing the deck, picking up all the stuff that rearranged itself while under sail, taking a nap......

;D

[Jim_ME]

When I go up to the boat, I have enjoyed the routine and time that it takes to get the boat ready to sail. It has become a time to relax and make the transition from the land world including driving and traffic, and to get reacquainted with being on the boat. A time to look at the scenery, notice the wind direction, notice what is going on around the anchorage...

I accept that sailing means more to do than motoring (especially the quickness and convenience of a p*werboat). I can understand that it might be different if I was pushing to make a certain distance each day, like when delivering a boat for work, to keep ahead of the cold when heading South for the winter. Sailing has rarely been that for me. Much of the enjoyment is not having too rigid a schedule or having to push too hard.

I've always liked the hanks as a piece of hardware (and a good snapshackle). They are so beautifully simple and functional, and unique to sailing. I've always enjoyed going up to the bow and the process of hanking on a sail or taking one out of the bag that it has been stored in overnight. Have to go up there to get the mooring lines ready to cast off or to weigh anchor anyway...

Also, in the past when I've have bought used headsails for my boats, to replace an old one or get one of a different size to fill out a basic suit of headsails--and it seems much easier to find hank-on sails than to try to match a furler [or pay to have it converted].

The Corinthian 19 that I got came with no sails, but did have a furler, the type that slips over the headstay. I removed it. Can't really see needing a furler for a 80 square foot jib or 120 SF Genoa. I still have a nice genoa from my former Typhoon, and although it is a bit small, it is hank-on and will work fine for my uses. Yet I am not throwing out the furler, since someone did go to the trouble of purchasing and installing it, and a future owner may see it as a desirable (or even *essential*) feature.

[John Bailey]

Nicely put Jim, and matches my feeling exactly.

13 years ago I bought an Alberg 30 with a ProFurl system.  I was new to sailing and didn't have an opinion.  That first season I became very tired of having to "fiddle" with the system.  It was probably my lack of experience.  The next year I left the Alberg 30 on the hard to rebuild and refit.  Because I owned a dock, and I had a friend with an Alberg 35 (hanked on sails) who needed a place to dock his boat, I sailed an entire season with hanks.  I found I had the same experience that Jim describes.  As part of my refit of the Alberg 30, I sold the furling system and went to hanks.  I sailed much of Lake Huron, Michigan and Superior the next five years and learned two very important lessons.

1.  For me, the sense of simplicity of hanked on sailed was immenently more satisfying than the roller furler.

2.  The Alberg 30 seemed to get out and be sailed much more frequently than the Alberg 35.  It seems that the extra size and weight of everything on the 35 made it just that much harder to move it out of it's slip.

[Captain Smollett]

Excellent, Jim,

It reminds me of this quote from Carl Wilkens (made on a much more serious topic):

"When we make something with our hands, it changes the way we feel, which changes the way we think, which changes the way we act."



Aside:

My children participated in the One Million Bones project today, so this is on my mind for that reason, too.

[Captain Smollett]

I just feel like that for all the things I *could* do to make it so that I sail more without RF, *FOR ME*, I would just be trying to
imitate RF, so why not just get RF.   ;)

I appreciate that you want RF for your boat, and believe me....in no way shape or form am I criticizing that decision.  The following comments are offered merely as "academic" discussion - food for thought for anyone else reading the thread that might be considering this issue.  Fair enough?

Your comment here about imitating RF is an interesting one to me.  That is, I see keeping the sail hanked on and ready to hoist at 'all time' to be nearly as quick and almost as easy as unfurling off a roller, but without the added gear, expense and complexity.

I've hanked on for a long time, But in a daily use situation I believe I would benefit from RF.

...  if I can easily save myself 10 or 20 minutes a day in sail handling,

I must confess to being a little confused by this point.  If the sail is hanked on, sheets led and sail simply tied down, how does RF save 15-20 minutes each day?

On a cruise, at anchor, I get up, untie a single sail tie, jump the halyard and the sail is up.  What is done with RF that's really faster than that?

I reiterate that on a cruise, I do not unhank the sail every night or stow it below/in a locker.  It stays ready to hoist in seconds ... pretty much always.  In the cruise situation you describe, sailing every day, RF would not save me much.

Where it does shine, however, is for daysails between longish times at the dock/anchor, where I typically do NOT keep the sail hanked.  If we are going to be a week or more before sailing again (or even a few days, sometimes), I take the sail off.  A better bag than what I have presently will change that, though.

If the boat were to be left again for an extended period unattended (I've left her at anchor completely unattended for up to 5 months), there's no way I'd leave the sail on, even in a bag. 

Then again, I don't really like RF in this situation, either...I've seen too many sails unfurl on unattended boats in big winds over the years, such as the one in our marina that had the headsail destroyed in hurricane Irene last August, or one in Hilton Head in a mere afternoon thunderstorm, in just this scenario.

[okawbow]

I've always used hank on sails. I've had several sailboats up to 31 feet, and have never even handled roller furling gear on a boat. I really don't mind putting on a hank on sail for day sails, but I usually keep the sail in a zippered bag on deck.

However; a couple years ago I bought a genoa and wire furler off an auction site for my Bristol 24. The price was less that just what the sail was worth. I intend to try it on the boat this spring, but I am leaving my forestay in place and mounting the furler a few inches inboard, so I can still use hank on sails on the forestay. I can quikly lower the furler and sail onto the deck if I don't want to use it. I could also pole out twin headsails if I want to.

Will I get hooked on the furler?

[Chattcatdaddy]

I've always used hank on sails. I've had several sailboats up to 31 feet, and have never even handled roller furling gear on a boat. I really don't mind putting on a hank on sail for day sails, but I usually keep the sail in a zippered bag on deck.

However; a couple years ago I bought a genoa and wire furler off an auction site for my Bristol 24. The price was less that just what the sail was worth. I intend to try it on the boat this spring, but I am leaving my forestay in place and mounting the furler a few inches inboard, so I can still use hank on sails on the forestay. I can quikly lower the furler and sail onto the deck if I don't want to use it. I could also pole out twin headsails if I want to.

Will I get hooked on the furler?

With that set-up would a running backstay be needed? Also would additional support for the furler system  be needed below deck. Such as when an additional forstay is added inboard on a sloop for storm sails.

I really don`t know the answer but it sort of came into my mind while reading your reply.

[okawbow]

Actually, I can still use the headstay fitting to mount the furler, by bolting a short plate to 2 of the holes in the fitting. The furler drum is only about 4" in diameter. The furling wire will be attached to the jib halyard with a swivel at the top of the wire. There should be just enough room for the sail to roll up inside the headstay. If it works, I'll try to get a picture.

[JWalker]

I must confess to being a little confused by this point.  If the sail is hanked on, sheets led and sail simply tied down, how does RF save 15-20 minutes each day?

I don' know.

I never claimed that if the sail was hanked on, sheets led, and sail simply tied down that RF would save 15-20 mins a day.

I merely claimed that it would save me 15-20 mins a day.  8)

[Godot]

I've considered roller REEFING, and have come to the conclusion that it would be a net positive for me...I'm just too cheap to invest in it.

What I really like is not the speed of "raising" and "lowering" sail (rolling/unrolling). Rather, it is the ability to quickly tweak how much sail is out, shifting gears as necessary in changing wind. I don't carry a lot of headsails (my 100% working jib and a smaller "storm" jib with one reef point) and wouldn't know where to put them if I did. Keeping maybe a 120% genoa on a roller would give me a decent amount of adjustment, and I suspect generally improve my overall sailing efficiency, even considering the penalty of less than ideal sail shape when reefed.

As I mostly single hand, I would also be more likely to sail in tight places (as opposed to motor). I still do; but it can be tricky, as keeping the boat pointed in the right direction while dropping (or raising) sail in close quarters can be rather exciting (particularly to the watching owners of nearby expensive floating palaces).

But, I'm in a saving money mode, getting ready for a multi-year Big Adventure starting in April 2014. I'm unsure, yet, whether I'll be taking off in Godot or changing boats, so I am being cautious with where my money goes.  I have a financial freedom target to hit, and everything else is secondary to that.

[Oldrig]

What I really like is not the speed of "raising" and "lowering" sail (rolling/unrolling). Rather, it is the ability to quickly tweak how much sail is out, shifting gears as necessary in changing wind. I don't carry a lot of headsails (my 100% working jib and a smaller "storm" jib with one reef point) and wouldn't know where to put them if I did. Keeping maybe a 120% genoa on a roller would give me a decent amount of adjustment, and I suspect generally improve my overall sailing efficiency, even considering the penalty of less than ideal sail shape when reefed.

I have been meaning to add my two cents to this endless thread, pointing out that as a singlehander who often has little room to maneuver and little time to raise and lower headsails, I find roller furling/reefing indispensable.

Thanks, you said it for me!

--Joe

[rorik]

FWIW:
I have a 97% jib with one reef point. It is hanked on. Sheets are led aft through dedicated blocks/track on deck. Dedicated tack pendant.
Code 0 is kept in turtle bag tied to pulpit. Code 0 is free flying. Sheets are led aft through dedicated blocks/track on toerail further aft than jib blocks/track. Dedicated tack pendant.
I run both sets of sheets prior to leaving the dock, unless I know that the Code 0 won't be used - wind over 15-20 and steady.
If I need to change from jib to Code 0, jib gets dropped, tied off to pulpit and lifeline, halyard switched, pendant for Code 0 attached. Hoist, sheet in.
Takes about 4 minutes singlehanded.
Switching back is just as easy.
Personally, I have no need for roller furling.

[Godot]

Personally, I have no need for roller furling.

<sigh>

I get the feeling of either defensiveness or superiority from those who choose the hank on method. And clear defensiveness from those who choose the roller furling. And I don't get it.

I know we are a generally KISS crowd. But the argument can be made either way regards the roller/hank on debate.

In any case, it's never about need. Sailing isn't about need. It's about what we like, what works, what makes us happy. For some it's a 50' boat with all the gee-gaws. For some it is the smallest and simplest of boats, navigating by guts and sailing by the seat of the pants. Most of us fall in between. The choices are all legitimate.

[Chattcatdaddy]

I go both ways on this debate. Seahorse has hanked sails and I have no plans to switch to a furling sytem. If she had came with a furling headsail I would not have changed it to hanked sails. Sometimes we over think these things.

As a side not I am really considering a conversion to a Junkrig in the next year or so.

[rorik]

Personally, I have no need for roller furling.

<sigh>

I get the feeling of either defensiveness or superiority from those who choose the hank on method. And clear defensiveness from those who choose the roller furling. And I don't get it.....

I didn't write that with the intention of appearing to need to be superior. But if that's how some people need to insert their own issues, so be it.....
Perhaps a more clear statement is that I don't feel the need to have a machine do for me what I can do myself.
I detailed my setup so that if anyone was interested, they could fully understand why I don't feel the need for roller furling.

[David_Old_Jersey]

I detailed my setup so that if anyone was interested, they could fully understand why I don't feel the need for roller furling.

That's how I read it.

As already said, I go both ways................. :o

[Godot]

I didn't write that with the intention of appearing to need to be superior. But if that's how some

I didn't mean it to sound like an attack, although perhaps my post wasn't written well. As well I may have misinterpreted your post. Sorry.

Perhaps I'm just cranky. I've more or less shifted myself off of forums as my own choices and prejudices have cemented. I've also come to realize that there really is no best way, that we all make our own choices, and that there likely aren't two people, even on a forum like this where there is a predominant mindset, who completely concur.  Daily I'm told (directly or indirectly) what the "best way" to do something is, which is often contrary to my personal experience and opinion.  I am having too often to justify my decisions to others (I'm talking primarily professional here, although there is a fair amount of personal justification I'm called to do as well). Sometimes I guess I just expect it.  I do try to avoid it; but I can occasionally get a bit persnickety.

[okawbow]

Personally, I have no need for roller furling.

<sigh>

"I get the feeling of either defensiveness or superiority from those who choose the hank on method. And clear defensiveness from those who choose the roller furling. And I don't get it."




I definitely feel superior for using hank-on sails! And I'll continue to feel that way until I can afford a good roller furling system! ;D

[CharlieJ]

 ;D ;D

Hey guys- ease up a bit. This thread started back in 2005!!! Been LOTS  of pros and cons tossed around since then. Still boils down to personal choice. I prefer hanks, but in bringing Tehani back around the coast, several times I'd have loved a RF jib. So don't get all het up about it ;D ;D