Porter's Boat Search

[tomwatt]

Then there's always the Kenner Kittiwake - one comes up for sale from time to time. At 23' long, it might do for you.

[Porter Wayfare]

Eight bells here. Good morning.

My wife and I just got back from a whirlwind boat viewing trip from north of Detroit to Illinois and Wisconsin. It was very productive. Our focus is narrowing and we are much more able to actually see what we are looking at. We saw a lot of boats but we were specifically looking at a Cape Dory 25D, a Cape Dory 27 and by good luck a Cape Dory 26.

So now we have some specific kinds of questions that I will be asking here as I think of them.

Like: 1) A CD 25D looks pretty big on a cradle. Assuming that some of you here who own a CD 25D can actually launch and retrieve off a trailer--and I'd like to hear something about what that's like--can you actually step the mast with a gin pole, or do you need a crane? My dinghy has a tabernacle. Can a larger boat be refit with one?

This is getting really interesting. You (all) were right: the 27 is a really nice boat. It feels really nice inside!

Porter

[Oldrig]

Like: 1) A CD 25D looks pretty big on a cradle. Assuming that some of you here who own a CD 25D can actually launch and retrieve off a trailer--and I'd like to hear something about what that's like--can you actually step the mast with a gin pole, or do you need a crane? My dinghy has a tabernacle. Can a larger boat be refit with one?

Hi Porter,

I've been sailing a Cape Dory 25D since 2003, and I find it to be a wonderful "little big boat."

However, I think it would be a very difficult boat to trailer, although I believe there is at least one owner who has done so.

If you have more detailed questions about the 25D, and any other Cape Dory boat, I'd suggest that you register (it's free) on the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association forum (www.capedory.org) and post your questions.

It's a wonderful source of information. CDers are an enthusiastic bunch of people with years worth of experience. Pay the site a visit.

(DISCLOSURE: I've been a compulsive poster on the CDSOA board for years, and I was just elected a regional officer of the association.)

Best of luck in your search,

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

My dinghy has a tabernacle. Can a larger boat be refit with one?

Yes, though depending on the boat, you will still need some sort of mechanical advantage to handle the mast.  Lots of boats have been rigged with tabernacles.

Notable and relevant to your question is Yves Gelinas' Alberg 30 Jean du Sud.  Not only did he set it up to raise the mast by himself, but also, it was OVERSIZE even for an Alberg 30!

So, bigger boats can be thus rigged, though it may involve some custom work/machining your part to accomplish it.

[Jim_ME]

Years ago, when I got my Cape Dory Typhoon 19, I decided to get a galvanized trailer with a "float-off" design for it. I was reluctant to make the investment in the trailer--they are not inexpensive (mine was about $2800 in 1994), but neither is paying a boatyard to haul/launch and store a keelboat. Of course, the cost of services are unrecoverable, whereas the investment in the trailer buys you an asset that you own and has value, and that you can resell. Even at my relatively inexpensive Maine costs, I estimate the trailer paid for itself in 3 or 4 years--considering only the basic storage. There were also other benefits...with a trailer, the boat becomes a trailer-sailer which gives you a vast range for sailing. When you store the boat at home, it is near your shop and tools, and there is no commute to go work on it, or another trip to get a tool you didn't know you would need, etc.  You are self-sufficient and can do everything on your own schedule.  This is especially nice when, like last season, a hurricane is heading your way and to haul out in the yard you may have to commit way ahead and go through with it in order to get on a yard or haulers busy schedule.

I still have the trailer, and it has been trouble free for 20 years, and still looks just a few years old. Needs new hydraulic brake lines. It has turned out to be one of the best investments I've ever made. Even at a $3000 cost and 30 year life, it would be $100 per year (plus registration, maintenance). I recently saw a similar used galvanized Triad (perhaps 10 years old) in MA for $1500.  

The same manufacturer, Triad Trailer (now of NC) makes custom designed trailers for many boat models. I just checked their website and found a photo of their tandem trailer for a Cape Dory 25D among their photos (see below--I'd pay the extra to get a galvanized version if I was floating the boat off and on). It shows a similar float-off bow stop, and could be equipped with an extendable tongue (the one on the Typhoon trailer is 8 or 10 feet long). With the bow stop, you have the winch above water (and the winch person), the keel guide boards and adjustable poppets guide the boat into position. [The CD25D is larger than the Typhoon, but I would expect that the whole system would work in a similar way. Tow it up into the parking lot and lower your (hinged) mast [using a bipod setup and the trailer winch] and lash it down on fenders, shorten your extending tongue, put on your tie-down straps, and that's about it. Have an inexpensive powerwasher at home to clean off the bottom when I get there (before it dries out).]  

I've towed the Typhoon many miles, launched, and hauled out with a small pickup with no problems. I've towed boats about the size and weight of a CD-25D with my 15 year old F150 4x4 and 4.9L 6 cylinder. For longer distances you would probably want a 3/4 ton (although the newer pickups have more capacity than mine). Have towed a Centaur on another Triad trailer (probably about 8500 pounds combined) with a 3/4 ton, and didn't really have any difficulties. It's just a matter of having sufficient power, brakes, suspension, etc. It does take time to adjust your driving and to become comfortable. If you need to get a tow vehicle just to tow the boat, that is a cost to factor in. For me it was a used one and not very expensive, and I have many other uses for it, to spread the cost over. If I wasn't doing any trailer-sailing, maybe renting a heavy-duty pickup (or hiring with driver) to tow the boat to and from the local ramp once a year, might be an economical option.

I do think that going much larger than a 26-foot/7,000-lb boat does get you increasingly into the range of diminished returns on the additional difficulty and cost. I've seen Alberg 30s on their own trailers, but most of boats this size and larger, are setup to be lifted off and onto the trailer [by a boatyard travel-lift and launched or hauled out; and often the yard will also step/unstep its (larger) mast], but even then it was still (apparently) worth it for the other savings and benefits. [I've also been fortunate to have lived in a semi-rural area where I have the space in the yard to store a boat, and it isn't banned by zoning, etc.]

Good luck with your search.
-Jim

[okawbow]

yes, a boat the size of the CD 25 can be trailered with the right trailer and truck. We have Trailered and launched our Bristol 24 many times. I retrieved and trailered the Bristol from Tarpon Springs, Fl to Illinois by myself. We have a hinge on the mast, and can raise it with 3 people, or with a winch system.

I built our trailer. It has hydraulic brakes on 2 axles. It's rated for 10,000 lbs. I pull it with a Ford 350 pickup with a 5.4 l gas motor.

Here is the trailer with our new project; a Privateer 26. We picked the boat up in New Bern, NC and hauled it over the mountains to Illinois with no trouble.

[Porter Wayfare]

These answers are exactly what made me feel this site was a goldmine.

I can imagine about what it would take to hinge the mast of a CD 25D or a CD 26. And the first keel boat I looked at was a Typhoon on a Triad trailer. It was the excellent trailer setup that encouraged me to push on.

My situation pretty closely matches what Jim_ME describes as his own: lots of choices of good sailing locations, a rural setting with room for storage and so on.

Well, then. After this weekend's crash course in bigger boats, and some of them very nice, my wife is lobbying for simplified systems: an outboard, and adequate but not fancy electronics, mainly. She doesn't want to get too chummy with a diesel in her cabin. It looks like trouble, she says. Expensive trouble.

We stumbled across a CD 26 and we both had the feeling it really filled the bill. One thing about the CD 25D is that there is nowhere to get away unless you want to sit on the pot. Everything happens in the main cabin. The 25D does have "Oh, poop" rails along the cabin roof but I guess if they're really important they could be retrofit into most boats. But the 26 has the same layout as the 27, i.e., a vee-birth forward, so there is someplace "else" to go, even if it's largely symbolic.

I call them "O, poop" rails because they remind me of once when the ore freighter I worked on as a kid was anchored just outside of Port Inland. We were waiting for the boat ahead of us to clear the dock so we could take on a load of limestone. There was a serious lapse of attention somewhere and our boat swung around parallel to the swells. All our ballast water had already been pumped out and we were floating like a cork. Man, did we ever roll! I was in the mess, eating. It was a beautiful evening. Nobody was expecting anything, and suddenly there was food and plates and pots and pans flying back and forth everywhere. The very round cook had wedged himself in the doorway between the mess and the galley and was shouting "God darn! Oh, poop!" as we rocked back and forth.

The captain came charging out of the dining room where he had been entertaining company executives and their wives who were vacationing on board. My memory has it that he was pretty well decorated with food. He smashed the button on the squawk box and let rip about "Get this god darn boat around!" That was the practical part of it. Then there was some truly impressive seasoned senior officer venting.

So, I'm kind of fond of a CD 26--and a nice Triad trailer. I'm kind of fond of my wife too.

Thanks all!
Porter

[Oldrig]

Porter,

The CD 26 is relatively rare--and because it's usually outboard powered (there were a few 26Ds), it could well be the boat you're looking for.

Once again, check the Cape Dory board for threads about trailering and raising the mast--there are plenty of CD owners who do this.

The 25D has an unusual interior design, replacing the V-berth with what my non-sailing wife calls "a big bathroom." She loved it, and that was one reason I bought the boat. But the more traditional interior of the 26 allows for greater privacy, although I'd advise against trying to get shuteye in the V-berth while under way.

Another problem (a big one) with the 25D: the head is forward, but the holding tank is aft, just forward of the engine. This means you've got a long piece of plumbing that passes through the storage locker under the port bunk/settee. There's plenty of opportunity for clogs and unpleasant odors.

Go with the 26--especially if you've got a big enough truck to haul it.

--Joe

[Cruise]

 Best of luck with your boat search Porter. Now is a great time to be buying a boat. I bought my Allied Seawind and June, and there were a lot of great boats to choose from, and I still can't believe that I got my boat with the budget that I had.
I understand that you have a lot of criteria to consider other than just sailing characteristics in your new boat, but for checking and comparing the (theoretical) sailing characteristics between different boats and finding out all of the specs and dimensions, I found a great website. It is sailboat calculator/comparisons, and the address is http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
   Have luck and have fun.  Keith

[Porter Wayfare]

Mates,
Yes, I've found the Sail Calulator site mentioned above. I've nearly worn it out, I think.

We're moving into a reality check mode here. We're going to look at a Sea Sprite 23 that's not exactly for sale, but it's the closest one. It's only 5 hours away. Then we're headed equally in the other direction to see a Kittiwake. Nothing like a real boat to bring some reality to the picture.

But wait! Wait! I have always loved trolley cars, the PCCs especially. And now I've stumbled across a boat that reminds me of them. It's a Cape Cod Marlin 23. I have a feeling the cruiser version would suit us just fine.

Take a look at this http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=327

How does it strike you? Got one you want to sell?

In the meantime, a sincere thanks for the suggestions, encouragement and tips.
Porter

[tomwatt]

There is an Edey & Duff Stonehorse for sale on Sailing Texas...
http://sailingtexas.com/201101/sstonehorse24100.html
Don't know about its trailer situation, but I have seen a couple listed with trailers. Another nice lil' boat!

[Jim_ME]

Porter, This CD25 in Maryland looks like a potential good deal. Nice design adapted from the Allied Greenwich 24 by George Stadel.
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/boa/2824145130.html

The Alberg Seasprite 23 is a fine boat, but I would consider it more of a weekender. The CD25 is only 600 lbs heavier with the same draft, so nearly as convenient to trailer, but has considerably more cabin space for cruising.

Here is an (expired) ad for a similar boat setup on a tandem trailer, for reference. [Not by Triad, which has the screw poppets that you can lower away from the hull when working on/painting the bottom]

Again, best wishes for your search,
-Jim

[Porter Wayfare]

Yes, the CD 25 is a good tip. I had forgotten about it when I locked on to the idea of a CD 25D. It fits the pared-down drift we're on. Thanks.

Is there anything to recommend Cape Dory 25 over an Allied Greenwich? I have the idea they're the same design. Is that true? How do the two builders compare?

We're off to sit in a Sea Sprite 23 for a while tomorrow!

Onward with an increasingly glazed look,
Porter

Wait! I get the picture: the interior of the Allied is just a big daysailer, but the CD 25 is set up with an eye toward longer cruises. OK. Allied out, CD 25 in.

Carry on.

[Oldrig]

Porter:

The Cape Dory 25 is a great sailing boat, and it is easily trailered. The only drawback I could think of would be the lack of standing headroom. And you're right about the interior design vis-a-vis the Greenwich 24. Externally they're the same boat, but the CD has a useable interior.

I chose my 25D because I wanted the diesel engine and standing headroom, however when I look at the 25, with its lower windage and better sailing characteristics, I'm sometimes jealous of the 25.

We're off to sit in a Sea Sprite 23 for a while tomorrow!

I personally have always found the Sea Sprite 23 to be one of the most visually appealing sailboats on the water. There's not much room below, and the boat is kind of tender. But it is a thing of true beauty--a sailboat that looks like a sailboat.

Don't get too glassy-eyed. Find a boat that you like before the coming season starts. All the boats you've mentioned here are good ones, and you'll be satisfied with any of them. (Until you catch the dreaded two-foot-itis.)

Fair winds,

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

(Until you catch the dreaded two-foot-itis.)

Sailfar is a good innoculation of that dreaded disease.

  :)

[Jim_ME]

Hi Porter, That CD25 seemed to me to be quite a bit of boat for the buck, which is usually my main consideration, assuming that it is in decent condition. This may free up some funds in your budget to get a good trailer.

One possibility that you might consider is getting a tandem trailer that is oversize such as one that is designed to carry the CD26 (or 25D, Ariel 26, etc.), then if you decided to move up to one of those in the future (or found a great deal on one), you could then sell only the CD25 and keep and reuse the trailer with the larger boat. It might be a minimal cost to get the oversize trailer initially and keep your options for the future open?

I agree with Joe that the Seasprite 23 has beautiful lines. When I first saw the SS23 cabin, I thought...Hey, its a Typhoon for 4 adults.  ;)

The CD25 does not have standing headroom throughout the cabin, but does have enough volume in the cabin and height above the settees to have comfortable sitting headroom, and the small galley areas are aft where you can stand under the companionway (open at least and possibly closed?). If only open than you may be able to add a dodger or awning over the boom to keep out weather at anchor. In contrast, the Seasprite sink and counter/icebox are forward, away from the companionway and with even less headroom. The settee berths are pushed aft so that they are partly quarter berths, so do not work as well as settees. If you are daysailing and just overnighting--sleeping in those berths--they should work all right, but if you are cruising and caught aboard on a rainy day with a book or laptop, the CD25 would be much more roomy and comfortable living space--and  more space to have a good-sized table

Joe is right...they are all good. I had a great time sailing my former Typhoon 19 for 12 years.

[Porter Wayfare]

Mates,

In St Ignace, which is the town at the north end of the Mackinac Bridge in Michigan, we were shown a Sea Sprite 23 in really fine shape.

Better than the boat though was the guy who showed it to us! What a genuinely fine man!  Now this is one of the best parts of the whole boat thing. Other Wayfarer sailors we've met have been similarly warm. I count the guy I got my Wayfarer from as a pretty good friend now.

Your responses and coaching passed on to me here on SailFar are right there in that same vein. I appreciate it deeply.

But, alas, my wife and I eagerly climbed up on to the beautiful Sea Sprite 23 and down into the cabin where we immediately turned to look at each other. "Too small," the look said. But the boat was so beautiful! Oh, no!

On to Traverse City on the west side of the Lower Peninsula where a CD25 held the solid promise of solving our quest. To make a medium story short: I am 5'8" and I could not sit fully upright on the settees. All that boat and I had to slouch to sit!? No way.

So all the way home we talked again about how beautiful the CD27 in Chicago was, and about going to see a CD26, or a Kittiwake maybe. I kept remembering how nice the inside of the Alberg 22 felt. You know: on and on. My wife hasn't been in an Alberg or CD 22 yet. Maybe that's the next move. I wonder what an Ariel's like....

I'll let you know,
Porter

Does this never end? I just ran across a Paceship Eastwind 23. The cabin profile is, well, funky, but the hull and keel look great. Does anybody have an opinion about them?

[CharlieJ]

Porter- just keep looking. You won't find the boat- the boat will find you. You'll climb into one or another and the boat will say "THIS IS IT!!!"  ;)

[Chattcatdaddy]

I wonder what an Ariel's like....

Standing headroom! I`m 5`8" also and I didn`t think it was all that important when I started my search. As I will be living aboard full time it makes life a little more comfortable. The Ariel is about the perfect blend of size and comfort for a solo/couple cruise. It would be a lot of boat to trailer around if you plan to launch it week to week.

Just keep searching gotta kiss a lot of frogs before the princess comes around and you mightfind it well outside your search area (like me).

Keep in mind the wrong boat in a good location is still the wrong boat, but the right boat will always make you happy no matter where you find it.

FWIW dont tell someone that their boat "doesn`t suit your eye". ;D

[Captain Smollett]

Porter- just keep looking. You won't find the boat- the boat will find you. You'll climb into one or another and the boat will say "THIS IS IT!!!"  ;)

Wow, Charlie, excellent point.  Grog for that.

It's so true.