Sheet to Tiller self steering

[marujo_sortudo]

Just received my copy of Self-Steering Without a Windvane by Leb Woas.  This is a great book that every sailfar'er should peruse to develop low cost, self-steering strategies appropriate for their boat.  Even if you have a wind vane, you may want to use these when it inevitably breaks.  Unfortunately, it's been out-of-print for some time and tracking down a copy for a reasonable price might take some luck...

[Captain Smollett]

Looking to spend money for overly complicated engineering?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGEwxEOQYIc

This is essentially a 'hard wired' sheet to tiller gear.   I don't know how much it costs, but my sheet to tiller gear cost probably less than $10 to make.

The ad copy on the Steersman Web Page is interesting to read, as well.

It almost reads like they had no idea traditional sheet to tiller gear exists, or simply want to hide the existence from potential customers.

The part I find interesting is the claim to be useful RACING, then under "Wind Dead Astern," it is written:

Sail under jib or spinnaker only on this course

That's not racing.   ;)

Despite the fact that folks can easily make their own gear and use it without making permanent modifications to their boats, he'll probably sell a bunch of these.

No wonder folks think it costs six figures to outfit a boat for cruising.,.,.   ::)

[Grime]

I'm sorry I just don't see how your sheet to tiller cost you $10.00. You sure you didn't leave out a zero?

Part required.

    Three ball bearing blocks, with 1 1/4" sheaves. The ones that have swivels with a "D" shackle that can be attached directly to a snap hook are best.
    Six snap hooks. The 3" bronze ones with swivels are best.
    Twenty-five feet or so of 1/4" line. Braided dacron is good because it goes through the blocks well and doesn't stretch.
    Four feet each of 3/16" and 3/8" OD surgical tubing. Some coarse sized, waxed siezing line works great for tying the tubing.
    Two "C-cleats", which are a type of cam cleat, attached one on each side of the tiller.
    A cam lever that clamps onto the jib sheet, is shown in the last photo. This is an optional piece of gear and is only used to simplify attachment to the jib sheet.

[Captain Smollett]

I'm sorry I just don't see how your sheet to tiller cost you $10.00. You sure you didn't leave out a zero?

Yes.  I'm sure.  $10...maybe $20.  Certainly FAR less than $100.   ???

Part required.

Maybe your parts list differs from mine....at least in the REQUIRED category.

My current gears use:  Some line, two (not three) blocks with 3/4" sheaves (no way I'd need 1 1/4" blocks), no snap shackles (splices to the blocks since I used 3 strand) and no swivels, no cleats at all..just tie to the tiller with clove hitches.  The 'cam lever' can easily be made from scrap wood.

My first sheet to tiller gear, for the small boat, used less than this; some scrap line, a single bungee cord and one small block.  And...it worked tremendously well.

YMMV.  You want to spend a hundred bucks?  Go ahead, and your gear will likely be 'better' than mine.  But I know mine works underway on my boat, so I really don't need anything else.

[Grime]

I didn't say that my gear is better than yours. I have no intentions on spending a hundred bucks on one. I just didn't see how you could do it so cheap. I have not found the blocks for less that 20 each so I don't have sheet to tiller yet. I guess over the winter I could carve out the blocks from scrap wood for one of the houses going up here.

How about some photos of your system? 

[Captain Smollett]

I didn't say that my gear is better than yours.

No, I meant that IF you spent $100 on a set, that would be better than mine.

I have not found the blocks for less that 20 each so I don't have sheet to tiller yet.

Defender currently has Series 20 Ronstan blocks (which I use) for about $12.  You really only NEED one.  Add some 1/4" or 3/16" 3 strand (easy to splice) dacron line and grab a spare bungee cord.  That's all you need to start experimenting...works well from close hauled to having the wind aft of the beam.

Off the wind, you might need that cam lever you mentioned (the jib sheet tends to generate too much force off the wind and thus overpowers the tiller/bungee or surgical tubing), which you can certainly make on the cheap. 

As for photos of my gear...it's nothing special.  Garden variety from John Letcher's book, republished by the Pardey's and reproduced in various manners all over the 'Net.

I'll describe it for now, but try to get some pictures later.

Basically:

Two pieces of 3/16" 3 strand dacron about 4 ft long with a small block on one end via an eye splice

One piece of line about 8-10 ft long.  I also keep another longer piece just in case I need it.

This line is rove through the block on one of the 4 ft pieces of line.

Four sections of air tubing bought from a dive shop.  These have eyes seized into each end with whipping twine.  On one end, the eyes each have rope loops that fit over the tiller.  On the other end, the eyes are attached to an eye spliced in one end of another 4 ft. piece of line.

That's it.

Total Materials:

2 Ronstan Series 20 Blocks
About 50 feet or so of 3/16" three strand dacron
About 4-6 ft of air tubing or surgical tubing.

Labor:

Time to make eye splices and loop splices in the 3 strand, back splicing the other ends.
Seizing the eyes in the rubber tubing

Call it a few hours, spread over multiple days (did a lot of the splicing while watching tv, back when we still had a tv).

[Godot]

That Stearsman looks like a pretty slick piece of engineering to me.  Almost certainly out of my budget; but then, most things are.  Funny how different people view things.

[Captain Smollett]

Funny how different people view things.

Yes it is.

My "problem" with it is two fold:

(1) Why use something complicated to do something simple, when the simpler solution will work?

Here, "complicated" refers to replacing winch bases and requiring self tailing winches.  In many cases, as soon as you put "system requirements" on something, it's utility, longevity, durability and/or repair-ability (in the field) is diminished.

Classic sheet to tiller gear requires NO permanent modifications to the boat.  It is simply lines tied or cleated off.

(2) On a philosophical level, I find the marketing troublesome.  John Letcher wrote his book over three decades ago and there have been others since.  Sheet to tiller self steering is profound in its simplicity, and time has told that it is HIGHLY functional.  Oceans have been crossed with this "technology."

Yet this product's marketing creates, or perpetuates, the illusion that this inventor thought of using the force of the sheets to provide input for the steering, and some sort of "Hooke's Law Device" (a bungee, a shock cord, an actual metal spring, whatever) to counteract weather helm.

All this is is Letcher's Sheet to Tiller arrangement with a rigid, fixed "system" to connect to the tiller.  There is no new physics here.  There's not even really a new application of old physics.  One could argue that this is an evolution of sheet to tiller steering, moving from attaching with ropes to attaching with rods, but I could likewise argue since it involved PERMANENT alteration of the boat...it's devolution. 

Eye of the beholder, indeed.

So...if you think this is "neat," consider doing yourself a favor and play with Letcher's "design" first.  It will work just as well (it has to, it's the same basic setup), cost a tiny a fraction and save having to remount winches for the installation.

[Godot]

Don't worry about me.  I'm not buying the unit.  I'm too cheap for that.

But I suspect there will be a market for it.

Sheet to Tiller, as simple as it may be, does intimidate and confuse some people.  Enter a unit which takes a lot of the thought and experimentation out of the system, and perhaps it will appeal to people who are looking for an alternative to electric steering and wind vanes.

People have different philosophies with regards to simplicity.  Simple systems (few, cheap components).  Simple to use.  Simple to learn.  Some like shiny stainless.  Some people may just like to play with solid steel.  Who knows.  Different strokes boats for different folks.

There is more than one way to do almost anything (take a look at all the windvanes and anchors on the market, not to mention the different sailboats).  Variety and options are good.  Ingenuity is good.  This will certainly find a market.  If it will be a big enough market to keep the company solvent remains to be seen.

So the system is not the cheapest or the simplest option.  It still looks like an ingenious piece of engineering.

[Captain Smollett]

It still looks like an ingenious piece of engineering.

This is where we may slightly differ (which is, of course, fine).

I maintain that the ingenious engineering was done by John Letcher over 30 years ago.  That this dude attaches the sheet to the tiller via a solid piece of metal rather than ropes is not engineering...unless it solves a problem that existed with the earlier approach.

The 3 decades of use by many sailors in many different kinds of boats strongly suggest to the little engineer in me that no such problem existed.

This is the Microsoft Business Model:  use marketing, rather than real invention (**), to sell your product or service.  It made them rich, so it might this guy, too.

I sure wish I could "invent" some snake oil to pad MY cruising kitty just as effectively....

** (Actually, I concede that this guy does have a valuable product to sell, but it's not the angle he's pushing...that is the "turn-key-ness" of his product.  Yes, sst works and is inexpensive...but, YOU have to do the work of working it out on your boat, assembling the parts and putting it all together.  He's selling a finished, installable deal that eliminates all that.

So...he DID engineer a way to make it "just install" on almost any boat.  That's more than I could do with just lines and blocks and rubber tubing.

Some are DIY-ers, other are not.  Cool...variety, life spices, etc. More power to him on the "turn-key" angle, but I do wish he'd tone down the marketing glitz that makes it sound like he INVENTED sheet based self steering). 

[Oldrig]

John et al:

FWIW, after years of playing with sheet-to-tiller steering, including contributions to this thread a couple of seasons ago, I've pretty much stopped trying to get such a system to work for me.

For one thing, I've realized that a Cape Dory, with its long keel, sails very well to windward if the sails are trimmed correctly (your Alberg 30 must have a similar underwater profile). Lately, I've taken to getting my sails balanced and then positioning my Raymarine ST2000 so that the boat is holding a course relative to the wind. Then I turn off the tiller pilot (put it on "standby"), so it isn't draining the battery very much. This system seems to work at least as well as my older sheet-to-tiller system did.

For another thing, I was able to get sheet-to-tiller to work quite effectively before I got my 130% genoa. With a working jib, I could tie the feedback line to my mainsheet, rig up a length of surgical tubing and sail very nicely to windward.

However, with the genny, I have had to try to set up a feedback mechanism to the jib sheets. (That's the principle of the Steersman, pretty neat, but definitely too complicated and costly for me). I have not been able to do that effectively, and I've found that using the ST2000 as a tiller holder works almost as well.

As for sailing downwind: I've never been able to rig up a self-steering system, or use the ST2000 for that.

I'm still fascinated with the concept--as I am with the idea of getting a windvane. But there's the little matter of money ...

Any suggestions on how to use sheet-to-tiller with a genoa?

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

As for sailing downwind: I've never been able to rig up a self-steering system, or use the ST2000 for that.

In the chapter on self steering, Eric Hiscock (Voyaging Under Sail) outlines a few methods for downwind self steering that predate both vane gears and John Letcher.

One uses twins as described by jmwoodring earlier in this thread.

The other uses a headsail sheet, though if memory serves, it's a second headsail set just for the purpose of providing steering input.

Downwind presents a problem even for the Steersman, since he recommends dousing the main and using JUST the jib...he cannot steer steady enough to avoid a jibe.

Any suggestions on how to use sheet-to-tiller with a genoa?

You mean even upwind?

I'm surprised using the main does not work, but I assume you've tried it.  Even if the genny is providing most of the drive for the boat, the main is still a big whopping sail for steering input.  I would think, anyway.

In general (and you may be the exception that proves the rule...   :P  ), the lee most sail is the one to use for steering.  Upwind, that's the main.  Shouldn't make a difference what headsail is in place...PROVIDED the helm is balanced by trimming the sails for a balanced helm vice maximum sailing efficiency.

Off the wind, steering with the genny generates too much force, so that a 'demultiplier' seems to often be needed on the genoa sheet.  Use a reverse tackle or a lever of some sort (with the longer, advantaged, arm to the tiller) to LOWER the force (but increase the movement) on the tiller.

I wonder...if you are trying to steer upwind with the genny if force reduction would work there, too.

[marujo_sortudo]

I wouldn't say that Letcher invented STT steering (plenty of sailors used STT steering before him,) he simply brought a modern engineering mind to it, wrote it down, and explained it in a way that helped others understand the forces involved.  I believe I've come across other books on the subject that predate his (although, the titles fail me right now,) but obviously his treatment is so thorough (esp. for wind vane design) that few have looked elsewhere.  Letcher spends a good bit of his time talking about wind vane design which left him less time to discuss STT steering.  For those interested in STT steering, I'd also recommend Lee Woas' book which is terribly expensive these days, but hopefully you can find a copy through a library using interlibrary loan, if you're not lucky enough to find one cheaply as I did.  Unlike Letcher, he only discusses STT steering with LOTS of examples, but less engineering analysis.  Apparently, lots of Cape Dory owners love this book because many of the examples use a CD28...

http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=22456

Another alternative of STT downwind sailing is rigging up a square sail which Lee discusses.  They work really well for downwind work and STT steering.  And yes, you can make one very cheaply (think bamboo pole and a tarp if need be + rigging) and they can work on many modern boats.  Of course, if you like how it works, you can sew your own more durable square sail.  Square sails are one of the easiest kinds of sails to make on your own.  Quite a few long distance cruisers used square sails in the 70's and swore by them.  They seem to me a more elegant and simple solution than flying twins, but YMMV.

[CharlieJ]

Here's another website with a very good website on STT. I've used it on Tehani for several days at a time quite successfully.

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

Also, here's a link to a video of Tehani sailing under STT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

[Oldrig]

Here's another website with a very good website on STT. I've used it on Tehani for several days at a time quite successfully.

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

Charlie,

That's a great website, and I based my STT system largely on what I found there. I also managed to contact either Ward or Guthrie (can't remember which). Whoever it was wished me lots of luck, but said he had abandoned STT for a tiller pilot.

Still, as I outlined in a PM to John, I realize that I still have lots of issues to resolve, mostly in connection with friction (the big enemy of getting good feedback from sheet(s) to tiller, and also with the placement of my blocks, which lifted my tiller a little, which also takes energy away from moving the tiller and rudder from side to side.

Maybe next year I'll get back to my experimentation.

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

At the risk of sounding 'confrontational,' I think before we give the Steersman's inventor too much of the engineering credit, I think we need to look at Letcher's Figure 3-23 found on page 70.

The caption to this figure reads:  "Special lever winch base for sheet-to-tiller coupling," and the sketch looks remarkably like the Steersman.  Letcher does not say if he thought of it or if he saw it on another boat, only that "a novel way of mounting the winches could provide the helm forces of the right magnitude with a lot more convenience and less friction ... The idea is to mount each winch on a special movable base rather than directly to the deck or coaming."

The guy is bringing the design to market, but he did not invent it.  Looking at Figure 3-23, I'll be dollars to donuts that he has a copy of Letcher's book and just built the thing.

Just to be clear...more power to him for marketing it; I've got no beef with that.

[Oldrig]

John,

My thought exactly.
I believe an earlier version of the Steersman was made of plastic.
The shiny, chrome-plated version looks much more professional, although I, for one, won't be trying to order one.
--Joe

[Chattcatdaddy]

A belcher design can be made for about $20...I bet this New? design will run you a little more. Reminds me that I need to order Belchers book on windvanes.

[ntica]

I think this look like a good alternative! what do you think?
http://www.steersman.net/Sailing_today_article.pdf

[Captain Smollett]

I think this look like a good alternative! what do you think?
http://www.steersman.net/Sailing_today_article.pdf

Look up a few posts in this thread, starting with this post, for our discussion of the steersman.